Is character class an in-world concept in your campaigns?

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Those are just examples. That’s not how every NPC has to be. You are not breaking a rule by not using the stats in the monster manual or PHB or dmg for an npc.
Nor is it breaking a rule, or even a stretch, to think that the NPCs who make it to super high level represent the best of the best, rolling great stats, finding stat boosting books, getting boons, and more. Just because the final numbers don't add up to a PC array, doesn't mean that they started higher. They just ended higher, like many PCs. Or maybe they just rolled well.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
If your willing to actually go watch the videos I can dig you up a few that shows both prayer that isn’t a request and a song directly to god that includes a request.

Prayer is not and never has been just - god give me. Sometimes prayer is about thanksgiving, sometimes about praise and sometimes about venting.

God thank you
God you are great
God I don’t know what to do

Honestly, I think your conception of prayer is cartoonish.
I think you got me confused with someone else. I am literally saying what you just said.
They don't have to spell out common sense. I mean, you are now arguing that, "Thank you <insert god here> for this food." can trigger a flame strike.
They do in order for it to be part of the rules.

Reciting psalms can, by RAW, be how a cleric uses their spells.

And mechanically, the cleric requests their magic during a long rest and prepare their spells, not when they cast a spell.
 
It's the height of presumptuousness to thank your god for something the god hasn't done yet. That's not a prayer, it's an expectation that your god will obey you. Not only that, but it sounds like you are swearing in a prayer to your god, while thanking him for protecting you from your enemies.



Maybe in 4e. I'm not certain about that edition. In every other edition your god grants you the power and it involves devotion and prayer, as well as doing the will of your god(or ideal in 3e), and 5e is no exception to that.
You have quite a hostility toward believing your god will do the things he promised. It’s not presumptuous or wrong to thank god for doing something he promised to do before he has done it - so long as you believe he really will

As an example - a popular religious verse from Christianity

Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I think you got me confused with someone else. I am literally saying what you just said.

They do in order for it to be part of the rules.

Reciting psalms can, by RAW, be how a cleric uses their spells.

And mechanically, the cleric requests their magic during a long rest and prepare their spells, not when they cast a spell.
Your argument is irrelevant, though. A flamestrike is a cleric spell. Unless the bard is 10th level or higher and has used one of his precious few magical secrets on it, it doesn't matter who sings what. Even then, after seeing a few more spells it's going be apparent who's the bard and who's the cleric.
 
Your argument is irrelevant, though. A flamestrike is a cleric spell. Unless the bard is 10th level or higher and has used one of his precious few magical secrets on it, it doesn't matter who sings what. Even then, after seeing a few more spells it's going be apparent who's the bard and who's the cleric.
Not at all. You are presupposing that only in fiction clerics can cast flame strike and in fiction bards cannot and that there are enough of both that anyone can draw that conclusion. But that’s not the case. A pc cleric doesn’t necessarily represent a typical in fiction cleric and even if it does it doesn’t necessarily represent every in fiction cleric.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
And if your heart and soul are your gods then it seems to me that your music or oratory performance has a source of your god no?
Not in mechanical terms, no. Only the cleric has his spells granted by his god as the divine source of his power. The bard may FEEL that the god is the source, but arcane is the real source.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Not at all. You are presupposing that only in fiction clerics can cast flame strike and in fiction bards cannot and that there are enough of both that anyone can draw that conclusion. But that’s not the case. A pc cleric doesn’t necessarily represent a typical in fiction cleric and even if it does it doesn’t necessarily represent every in fiction cleric.
Yes, you can alter the game fiction to suit your argument. That's a homebrew campaign, though. As the written default, clerics are X in D&D, and bards are Y.
 
Yes, unless you change them. And the word you are looking for is incapable, not inept.
I meant inept. Nice to know that your D&d gods lack the skill and power to grant followers arcane casting - except warlocks apparently - dunno what’s going on there - as in your games that should be impossible.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Your argument is irrelevant, though. A flamestrike is a cleric spell. Unless the bard is 10th level or higher and has used one of his precious few magical secrets on it, it doesn't matter who sings what. Even then, after seeing a few more spells it's going be apparent who's the bard and who's the cleric.
To who? Who are these people who know what the classes are and what their spell lists are, and can flawlessly recognize each spell when it’s cast? Do people in your worlds go around talking about how “Cleric Dan cast Flamestrike on that bandit captain, and the Captain was all, ‘oh crap they’ve got a Cleric y’all that was the Cleric spell Flamestrike we better run!’”?

Also it’s funny that you went from ardently insisting that bards have to make music to cast, and when I showed that isn’t true, you just dodged away with “that’s irrelevant!” Instead of admitting you were wrong about that aspect of the discussion.

And if your heart and soul are your gods then it seems to me that your music or oratory performance has a source of your god no?
Absolutely. And since no one knows what spell list a cleric has, because that sentence is full of mechanical concepts that don’t exactly translate into the game world, and don’t apply to NPCs by default, no one can tell that the Bard is a bard.
Simple fact is, a Bard can orate (Recite psalms) to cast spells, and so can a cleric.
Not in mechanical terms, no. Only the cleric has his spells granted by his god as the divine source of his power. The bard may FEEL that the god is the source, but arcane is the real source.
All magic is from the weave in 5e, IIRC, not that that matters at all to the actual topic.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I meant inept. Nice to know that your D&d gods lack the skill and power to grant followers arcane casting - except warlocks apparently - dunno what’s going on there - as in your games that should be impossible.
Are the gods so inept that they cannot snap their fingers and annihilate the entire multiverse?

Dude, the gods are not all powerful. They are not "inept" just because they cannot grant arcane spells.
 
Are the gods so inept that they cannot snap their fingers and annihilate the entire multiverse?

Dude, the gods are not all powerful. They are not "inept" just because they cannot grant arcane spells.
Are the gods so inept that they cannot snap their fingers and annihilate the entire multiverse?

Dude, the gods are not all powerful. They are not "inept" just because they cannot grant arcane spells.
It’s Inept when a god can’t do it but a lesser being like a powerful but non-god celestial, fey or fiend can grant arcane powers...
 
To who? Who are these people who know what the classes are and what their spell lists are, and can flawlessly recognize each spell when it’s cast? Do people in your worlds go around talking about how “Cleric Dan cast Flamestrike on that bandit captain, and the Captain was all, ‘oh crap they’ve got a Cleric y’all that was the Cleric spell Flamestrike we better run!’”?

Also it’s funny that you went from ardently insisting that bards have to make music to cast, and when I showed that isn’t true, you just dodged away with “that’s irrelevant!” Instead of admitting you were wrong about that aspect of the discussion.


Absolutely. And since no one knows what spell list a cleric has, because that sentence is full of mechanical concepts that don’t exactly translate into the game world, and don’t apply to NPCs by default, no one can tell that the Bard is a bard.
Simple fact is, a Bard can orate (Recite psalms) to cast spells, and so can a cleric.

All magic is from the weave in 5e, IIRC, not that that matters at all to the actual topic.
Look a little deeper into what the weave is and the information that exists out there about it. (Also are you sure divine magic comes from it? If so something pretty interesting happened.
Are the gods so inept that they cannot snap their fingers and annihilate the entire multiverse?

Dude, the gods are not all powerful. They are not "inept" just because they cannot grant arcane spells.
I think at this point it takes a pretty narrow mind set ro even utter "inept" in relevance to beings who can grant that many caster levels in broad band just because the frequencies dont happen to include all frequencies...
 
Look a little deeper into what the weave is and the information that exists out there about it. (Also are you sure divine magic comes from it? If so something pretty interesting happened.

I think at this point it takes a pretty narrow mind set ro even utter "inept" in relevance to beings who can grant that many caster levels in broad band just because the frequencies dont happen to include all frequencies...
I think it takes a narrower mindset not to be willing to consider that it could be legitimately categorized as ineptness
 

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