D&D General Is character class an in-world concept in your campaigns?

[Son of the Serpent]

I already have. The bard rules say that bardic spellcasting involves music. Clerical spellcasting doesn't involve music, though I suppose a cleric could play something while he prays and use a sung prayer. Also, with the exception of those few spells that bards can take from the cleric list through their class ability, their spell results will be very different from clerical spells. For someone who knows what to look for, it will be very hard for a bard to mimic a cleric effectively, and even harder for a cleric to mimic a bard.

Actually its possible to differentiate a spell a bard shares with a cleric because almost always its not truly the same spell its just a near impossible to discern analogue of it.

 

[FrogReaver]

Correct, but "God thank you." and the other types of prayer that aren't a request wouldn't trigger a spell effect. You aren't going to be thanking your god for something that your god hasn't done yet, unless you want to be hit by a divine bolt from the blue for being a presumptive little git. You're going to request that your god does x, and then later if you want to offer up a non-spell prayer thanking your god for that favor, you can. Or you could vent about the target resisting the prayer.

Why not? Is that in the rules?

 

[FrogReaver]

Unless explicitly stated spells that have an arcane version and a divine version are analogues. Not the same. Just very similar.

Where’s the rule that there’s any difference?

 

[FrogReaver]

Thats not setting specific btw. But holy crap i would have to dig and dig and dig for the entry that makes this clear. Of which there are actually multiple but since its not usually a terribly important piece of info its never somewhere obvious and noticeable.

I’ve seen many people make such claims only to come back empty handed when actually looking because the quote they thought was there isn’t.

 

[FrogReaver]

I already have. The bard rules say that bardic spellcasting involves music. Clerical spellcasting doesn't involve music, though I suppose a cleric could play something while he prays and use a sung prayer. Also, with the exception of those few spells that bards can take from the cleric list through their class ability, their spell results will be very different from clerical spells. For someone who knows what to look for, it will be very hard for a bard to mimic a cleric effectively, and even harder for a cleric to mimic a bard.

Yep bards always involve music. Clerics can always involve music. So how does music indicate someone isn’t a cleric?

 

[Maxperson]

Why not? Is that in the rules?

They don't have to spell out common sense. I mean, you are now arguing that, "Thank you <insert god here> for this food." can trigger a flame strike.

 

[FrogReaver]

They don't have to spell out common sense. I mean, you are now arguing that, "Thank you <insert god here> for this food." can trigger a flame strike.

Well you can contort nearly anything to sound unreasonable

How about a “thank you god for your flaming protection from my enemies”. flame strike falls!

Of course that’s assuming god does it, which doesn’t seem to be the typical D&d case. You’ve been imbued with magical power that you can activate according to your will.

So I really don’t see why the prayer in any way needs to specific the spell being cast. A simple thank you for this power every time you cast would be perfectly acceptable IMO

 

[Maxperson]

Yep bards always involve music. Clerics can always involve music. So how does music indicate someone isn’t a cleric?

With very few exceptions, the spell itself does that. Clerics have flame strike. Bards don't unless they spend their Magical Secrets on it. So I suppose once a bard hits 10th level, they have a very, very, VERY limited ability to kinda sorta pretend to be a cleric. Even then, they MUST use music and clerics not only don't have to use music, but very, very, VERY few of them ever will.

 

[Maxperson]

Well you can contort nearly anything to sound unreasonable

How about a “thank you god for your flaming protection from my enemies”. flame strike falls!

It's the height of presumptuousness to thank your god for something the god hasn't done yet. That's not a prayer, it's an expectation that your god will obey you. Not only that, but it sounds like you are swearing in a prayer to your god, while thanking him for protecting you from your enemies.

Of course that’s assuming god does it, which doesn’t seem to be the typical D&d case. You’ve been imbued with magical power that you can activate according to your will.

Maybe in 4e. I'm not certain about that edition. In every other edition your god grants you the power and it involves devotion and prayer, as well as doing the will of your god(or ideal in 3e), and 5e is no exception to that.

 

[Umbran]

I was asking how a singing cleric would be immediately recognized as singing prayers, as such, as opposed to simply songs of praise to the gods....

You say that as if there is a difference between "prayer" and "praise to the gods". I think in modern practice we could find any number of prayers which are "just praise to the deity". I don't see why spoken (or muttered) praise is less a prayer than sung praise.

If you want to know how people tell when the cleric is casting a spell as opposed to just signing - that'd be a Religion or Arcana check.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Where’s the rule that there’s any difference?

Many differences. A major one is actually established in the description. The mere fact some are arcane and some are divine changes the nature of the spell. The actual magic itself is a different sort of mystical power source. One is very fundemental (arcane) and one has a step in between. A god. A god has transformed arcane power into dovine power which can only be used for certain purposes. Think of arcane energy as crude oil and the divine as gasoline. Thats actually exactly whats happening. One version of a spell just runs on crude and the other has a motor thats a tad picky. Yes i know this explanation is heavy in metaphors. Its all legit. Also all the shaping of the magic is done by the arcane caster. The cleric does a minimal amountbof shaping.

 

[DammitVictor]

and dragons have an even higher point buy. As do many demons and devils and genies. NPC’s are just another critter. That doesnt Mean they are there to slay.

Dragons and high CR Outsiders have racial adjustments. If you're allowed to create 1st level versions of them, they will actually get to grow up to be 18th level versions of them by 18th level.

And the characters you mentioned after indid some comparing arent actually all that out of the norm for higher level npcs...it has pretty much IMMEDIATELY changed how i think im going to allow character building in future campaigns i dm! Wow...

In my games, I combine 4e-style advancements-- +1 to two abilities every 4th level-- with Conan d20 advancements of +1 to every ability every other even level. I've played with other variants in the past, but nothing else has really come out well.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

I’ve seen many people make such claims only to come back empty handed when actually looking because the quote they thought was there isn’t.

When its contradicted its setting specific. I never said there arent exceptions. Its a default.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Dragons and high CR Outsiders have racial adjustments. If you're allowed to create 1st level versions of them, they will actually get to grow up to be 18th level versions of them by 18th level.

A dragon's maturation is time based. It wont be an ancient wyrm or anything. Itll just have a lot of extra health and levels for its age. Outsiders on the other hand. Outsiders are weird. Especially the non LG ones (and some LG ones). At least thats what it generally seems like.

 

[DammitVictor]

Lots of us roll stats, you know. You shouldn't assume that these NPCs were built with point buy, or that players can't hit those stat numbers. You may not be able to, but that's your choice.

You show me someone who rolled those stats for their favorite PCs, and I'll show you someone who doesn't roll his stats in front of the DM. Especially when it's character after character after character.

 

[Maxperson]

You show me someone who rolled those stats for their favorite PCs, and I'll show you someone who doesn't roll his stats in front of the DM. Especially when it's character after character after character.

Me. I've done both. My favorite PC of all time was rolled in front of the DM and the rest of the group. In fact, every last one of my characters has been rolled in front of DM in group, for the last 36 years. I refuse to use point buy or array. That makes all of my favorite characters fall into the category that you name above(rolled stats for favorite characters) and none of my characters fall into the fabricated category you name above(doesn't roll stats in front of the DM).

You should avoid makes easily refuted claims like that.

 

[DammitVictor]

And exactly how many characters have you rolled in the past 36 years whose lowest stat was a 13?

 

[Maxperson]

And exactly how many characters have you rolled in the past 36 years whose lowest stat was a 13?

Maybe a dozen or a bit more. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen.

 

[Arnwolf666]

They weremt rolled though. Npcs in d&d core literature actually do use prescribed methods of stat creation without chamce involved. This is actually known. I hadnt until recently noticed the power creep in the prescribed ability arrays though. Its well above elite array now.

Those are just examples. That’s not how every NPC has to be. You are not breaking a rule by not using the stats in the monster manual or PHB or dmg for an npc.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Those are just examples. That’s not how every NPC has to be. You are not breaking a rule by not using the stats in the monster manual or PHB or dmg for an npc.

I know. But the example implies normality relevant to scale. So the "normal npc" is way more sparkly than the pc's normal shine. Therefore i can understand the rationale of going all king louis on the npcs.