D&D 5E Is Concentration Bugging You?

[DaveDash]

You have a Crossbow Expert. You have had a far easier time. I know if we had archers, the dragon wouldn't last long. It has been spending the fly spell to engage that has been screwing us up badly.

Foresight is awesome. I sure do want to try Shapechange. That spell looks fun. I imagine they'll errata that before too long. DMs will not be happy having everything beat with that spell.

I'm still shocked they made Forcecage and Wall of Force so powerful. No save locking a creature down is very powerful.

I puzzled over why Forcecage wasn't concentration for a while, it's very powerful.

However now after seeing it in play a few times, yes it can trivialize a lot of encounters, but it's also a 7th level slot. The Wizard in my group will only have one of those per day for quite some time, so it does consume a lot of resources in that sense.

My current group that I DM for is about to come across a CR20 Shadow Dragon without Crossbow Expert Cheese (Paladin instead of a Fighter), and of course I made it the spell casting variant (misty step). Let's see how they do.

 

[Celtavian]

I puzzled over why Forcecage wasn't concentration for a while, it's very powerful.

However now after seeing it in play a few times, yes it can trivialize a lot of encounters, but it's also a 7th level slot. The Wizard in my group will only have one of those per day for quite some time, so it does consume a lot of resources in that sense.

My current group that I DM for is about to come across a CR20 Shadow Dragon without Crossbow Expert Cheese (Paladin instead of a Fighter), and of course I made it the spell casting variant (misty step). Let's see how they do.

That sounds painful. At least you're testing out the high level stuff as well. As much as I don't care for concentration right now, I want to see how it plays out up to 18 to 20 before I push any house rules. Maybe it won't be so bad at higher level. I might work with the bard to have him cast fly since he can concentrate on two spells at once. That would let me do some other interesting effects.

And as an evoker, I'm looking forward to my level 14 ability. Maximized Bigby's Hand with a maximized 5th level scorching ray might be an end game "kill yourself while killing your enemy" end game move. Hit the dragon for 37 points guaranteed. Then launch a 10d6 scorching ray for 65 to 85 points depending on how the DM rules the Evoker extra stat damage ability works. A big 100 point hit to finish the job.

 

[Eejit]

Any Dragon under Gargantuan size just gets force caged and then it's game over.

Wow, pushover DM or what. No huge creature is going to neatly fit inside forcecage unless it's curled up sleeping imo.

 

[DaveDash]

Wow, pushover DM or what. No huge creature is going to neatly fit inside forcecage unless it's curled up sleeping imo.

Size is defined by squares, otherwise you end up in endless arguments over how long is a piece of string.

 

[Eejit]

Size is defined by squares, otherwise you end up in endless arguments over how long is a piece of string.

Squares are a shorthand abstraction. DM gets the final say.

If an enemy has 10-15ft reach on biting attacks it's pretty safe to say they extend beyond their squares when in combat.

 

[DaveDash]

Squares are a shorthand abstraction. DM gets the final say.

If an enemy has 10-15ft reach on biting attacks it's pretty safe to say they extend beyond their squares when in combat.

It's not safe to say anything. It's neck could extend out to that, but there is no guarantee that in its natural position it takes up any additional space.

The whole reason why squares are used in the first place is to abstract all those cops and robber's type situations away, AND to give the players a consistent set of rules to work with.

If you started throwing that at me as a DM id damn well be asking you for an entire list of monsters that could or couldn't fit into it, and failing your provision of said list, leave your table as fast as I could. Otherwise who knows what side of the bed you may wake up on before game time and decide whether something fits or doesn't fit

 

[Eejit]

If you started throwing that at me as a DM id damn well be asking you for an entire list of monsters that could or couldn't fit into it, and failing your provision of said list, leave your table as fast as I could. Otherwise who knows what side of the bed you may wake up on before game time and decide whether something fits or doesn't fit

Easy, any creature with with functional wings or with reach in combat has body parts extending beyond the squares they take up on the ground.

 

[DaveDash]

Easy, any creature with with functional wings or with reach in combat has body parts extending beyond the squares they take up on the ground.

That's your house rule. There's nothing in the rules that say that.

Goblins have 5ft reach and don't take up a cube of 15ft.

I could argue with you about this all day, hence why the rules abstract all this away to spaces.

 

[Eejit]

there is no guarantee that in its natural position it takes up any additional space...

The whole reason why squares are used in the first place is to abstract all those cops and robber's type situations away, AND to give the players a consistent set of rules to work with.

That's your house rule. There's nothing in the rules that say that.
.

Oh? It's clearly stated that a creatures "space" isn't the same as their physical size.

A creature's space is the area in feet that it effectively controls in combat, not an expression of its physical dimensions. - PHB 191

 

[I'm A Banana]

We're talking high level creatures like dragons with flight that move at 80 feet. They don't have any obstructions because they move over or around them easily.

Why aren't party members in melee with those dragons, forcing them to eat OA's if they do this? Also, why is this dragon-fight happening in a big open field without bottlenecks or cover? Also also, why is the only creature you're facing dragons?

If we try to hang out in an area that would force it to bottleneck, it flies around until our spells run out or its breath weapon recharges and breathes on us. It has no incentive to attack us. We have to kill it. The dragon gets to bide its time and use its most effective strategy.

That would seem to be a problem un-related to the Concentration mechanic that could be well solved with some clever RP or context-setting. What's the scaly jerk want and how can you stand in its way?

Not for a 60 foot wide cone. On top of that the lairs we were in were difficult terrain.

A 60-ft. wide cone can still only catch ~2 party members if they are 1 move apart. Maybe up to 4 in difficult terrain if they're being precious about their actions and are unwilling to use the Dash action. And then only if they're at maximum distance -- creatures in melee, on opposite sides of the critter...he can only catch one of the two things flanking him.

I'm working on refining my spell list. As I stated in another thread, the spell list can't be built for beating one creature. You have to build it with other uses in mind because you're never sure what you're facing. I'm trying to reach the point where I have sufficient spells for dealing with the variety of situations we face and am capable of adding good damage to battles against dragons. Dragons are tough as hell in this game with the mobility rules as they are. The faster we get it down, the better chance we have of surviving.

1) You're never going to be prepared for EVERY situation, even as a versatile spellcaster. Missing an action or being impotent for a round or blowing a spell slot to little effect is just part of the way 5e rolls. It's not something that should be an overriding concern (just talk to any Fighter who spends her turn whiffing her attacks).

2) "Dragons are tough" is not the same as "Concentration is an awful mechanic." I imagine dragons would be tough! (Though I will note that up until the teens, they're vulnerable to tactics as simple as "Throw a net on 'em"). Clerics are also more effective against undead than they are against oozes -- it doesn't mean that clerics are fundamentally broken just because they struggle with one kind of encounter.

I know our DM has been playing the dragons against softer than I would play them. Given their advantages, I don't many parties I couldn't kill with nearly no chance of them winning.

I haven't come up against a "real" dragon in play yet, but I'm not too worried. Dragons get slain every day in this game, and it's a poor craftsman who blames his tools. Maybe my action-denial-focused wild sorcerer won't get a lot of mileage out of their most effective spells on it and I'll be buffing the fighters for the most part, but that's OK.