D&D 5E Is Concentration Bugging You?

[KarinsDad]

How about a middle ground of one concentration check per action? That way classic claw/claw/bite routine would be a single concentration check, but a bonus action attack would still be separate? It would solve the problem of something hitting you 3 times for 1 point each being substantially more likely to break your concentration than something hitting you once for 20 points, while still avoiding the absurd concentration DCs that could occur if you combined all the damage from a legendary that has multiattacks, damaging lair actions, and bonus action attacks.

This seems reasonable. It might also be designer intent, even though they did not explicitly state that. It's funny how many ambiguous rules can get into a game system after 40 years of rules and nearly as many of errata being written.

 

[KarinsDad]

Wow. I'm going to have to bring some cheese to this thread, to go with all this whine.

What we have here is a difference in expectations. For the folks who were happy with the linear-fighters/quadratic-wizards of the first few editions, I can see how the change would be irritating. It sucks to no longer be able to solo an encounter. To no longer be the necessary cog so that your martials are viable, and then save-or-suck the BBEG while the help mops up the mooks.

Then 5e comes along and you actually have to choose what you do. You can help make the martials more effective OR try to lock down an opponent. Heck, you might actually NEED other party members in this edition! What's the world coming to...

These type of posts make me glad that some people here who mock the table preferences of other posters, do not play at my table. You could have talked about expectations without the snark.

 

[Celtavian]

Why aren't party members in melee with those dragons, forcing them to eat OA's if they do this? Also, why is this dragon-fight happening in a big open field without bottlenecks or cover? Also also, why is the only creature you're facing dragons?

It's a big cave. OAs don't mean much in this game. Often you save your reaction for other special abilities.

A 60-ft. wide cone can still only catch ~2 party members if they are 1 move apart. Maybe up to 4 in difficult terrain if they're being precious about their actions and are unwilling to use the Dash action. And then only if they're at maximum distance -- creatures in melee, on opposite sides of the critter...he can only catch one of the two things flanking him.

Doubtful. You spread out that far, he kills you piecemeal.

1) You're never going to be prepared for EVERY situation, even as a versatile spellcaster. Missing an action or being impotent for a round or blowing a spell slot to little effect is just part of the way 5e rolls. It's not something that should be an overriding concern (just talk to any Fighter who spends her turn whiffing her attacks).

2) "Dragons are tough" is not the same as "Concentration is an awful mechanic." I imagine dragons would be tough! (Though I will note that up until the teens, they're vulnerable to tactics as simple as "Throw a net on 'em"). Clerics are also more effective against undead than they are against oozes -- it doesn't mean that clerics are fundamentally broken just because they struggle with one kind of encounter.

I think concentration makes the game boring because I think it is boring to cast a fly spell and suddenly have every concentration offensive option removed from your spell list.

Boring is worse than broken. I never said wizards weren't effective with concentration. We are still winning the battles. I find the current concentration design to make playing a caster boring because of how it limits your spell list.

Why you are interpreting this as an "awful" mechanic as in "broken" is not what I'm saying. To me it is awful because it makes life boring as a caster.

I haven't come up against a "real" dragon in play yet, but I'm not too worried. Dragons get slain every day in this game, and it's a poor craftsman who blames his tools. Maybe my action-denial-focused wild sorcerer won't get a lot of mileage out of their most effective spells on it and I'll be buffing the fighters for the most part, but that's OK.

Ok for you, not fun for me. The fact that it will be the same every single time I play a caster makes it even more boring.

If it doesn't start becoming more fun, I doubt I'll play a caster again. I can't stomach casting one buff on the martials and making a third to a quarter of my spell list off limits. If I want to make a polymorph attacking wizard, I should be able to do it while still providing buffs for the martials. If I want to a make mind control wizard, I should still be able to play one without leaving the martials unbuffed. If I want to cast an offensive spell like Bigby's Hand as an evoker, I shouldn't have to leave the martials holding their swords looking at me for help.

Maybe this doesn't bother you playing caster after caster using non-concentration spells, since it seems you're fine taking the same spells over and over and over again. I don't like it. I like being able to make different types of casters that use different tools. I think a mechanic that forces a binary play-style is badly designed. It is binary. For example, once I cast domination or polyorph, I pretty much have to leave myself or the martials open to full damage from breath weapon energy attacks or at the mercy of flying creatures. So I'm option 1 (have fun as wizard) or option 2 (enable martials to have fun using their abilities).

You get back to me after you think about casting something besides what you're using now and find that concentration doesn't allow for it. Basically, remove those spells from your options or leave your martials hanging. The concentration mechanic makes it a binary game unless they get a magic item that makes up for the lack of a buff.

 

[I'm A Banana]

It's a big cave. OAs don't mean much in this game. Often you save your reaction for other special abilities.

Yeah, this has gotta be part of the non-Concentration-related issues. OA's are brutal in a game where the HP's are so low. If a critter gets hit on an OA because they want to disrupt your Concentration that hard, you've just decreased their life expectancy by a round or two.

Doubtful. You spread out that far, he kills you piecemeal.

That's part of the strategy here. If he has to kill you one at a time, your party has PLENTY of time to react to the attacks.

I think concentration makes the game boring because I think it is boring to cast a fly spell and suddenly have every concentration offensive option removed from your spell list.
Boring is worse than broken. I never said wizards weren't effective with concentration. We are still winning the battles. I find the current concentration design to make playing a caster boring because of how it limits your spell list.
Why you are interpreting this as an "awful" mechanic as in "broken" is not what I'm saying. To me it is awful because it makes life boring as a caster.
Ok for you, not fun for me. The fact that it will be the same every single time I play a caster makes it even more boring.

Again, why aren't you taking non-concentration spells? The reason you gave was because they weren't "effective," and I pointed to that as part of the root of the issue: you're writing off a lot of magic that is really quite effective as if it's nothing.

If it doesn't start becoming more fun, I doubt I'll play a caster again. I can't stomach casting one buff on the martials and making a third to a quarter of my spell list off limits. If I want to make a polymorph attacking wizard, I should be able to do it while still providing buffs for the martials. If I want to a make mind control wizard, I should still be able to play one without leaving the martials unbuffed. If I want to cast an offensive spell like Bigby's Hand as an evoker, I shouldn't have to leave the martials holding their swords looking at me for help.

I suppose if what you want to do is EVERYTHING, then yes, you are going to be disappointed. But wanting to do everything is wanting too much. Re-calibrate your expectations. Be OK with not dominating.

Maybe this doesn't bother you playing caster after caster using non-concentration spells, since it seems you're fine taking the same spells over and over and over again.

You're setting up this strawman of my play experience so you can easily knock it down without bothering to question if this caricature you've drawn has any resemblance to reality.

I don't like it. I like being able to make different types of casters that use different tools. I think a mechanic that forces a binary play-style is badly designed. It is binary. For example, once I cast domination or polyorph, I pretty much have to leave myself or the martials open to full damage from breath weapon energy attacks or at the mercy of flying creatures. So I'm option 1 (have fun as wizard) or option 2 (enable martials to have fun using their abilities).

It's fine to not do everything. It's fine if martials take full damage from energy attacks or have to use a bow every once in a while. They have the capacity to deal with this stuff (evasion, second wind, healing potions, ranged attacks). You don't need to do that for them.

You get back to me after you think about casting something besides what you're using now and find that concentration doesn't allow for it. Basically, remove those spells from your options or leave your martials hanging. The concentration mechanic makes it a binary game unless they get a magic item that makes up for the lack of a buff.

I think part of our different experiences is because I don't expect my casters to be able to do everything all at once, and I trust my other party members to stand on their own two legs without me babying them with magical padding. A magic buff is nice, but it's hardly necessary. Same with a magic debuff. And I don't need to do both at once because either one is still quite nice.

My last combat had me making decisions between casting hypnotic pattern, phantasmal force, invisibility, and crown of madness for Concentration spells. I used HP, and I didn't really miss the other ones -- instead, I kept my distance and spammed Sleep spells and managed to deny the actions of a fortress full to bursting with downright AD&D-levels of monsters. And my melee allies weathered the storm of goblin-knives just fine without turning any of them or myself invisible (and being a sorcerer with a 12 AC, they did a fine job by and large of being in melee and keeping the hoard occupied). It was a difficult combat where I used up every single one of my spell slots and every Sorcery Point I had and finished the combat with 3 hp, and I felt effective and had interesting decisions to make on every turn.

That's a success. And I would not have enjoyed the combat nearly as much if I just spammed HP over and over again -- I would not have had interesting decisions to make.

That's just an anecdote, but it points to the problem not being intrinsic to the Concentration mechanic, but rather having more to do with playstyle, expectations, and experiences.

 

[DaveDash]

In 5e some spells are just much better than others regardless of concentration. Spells aren't very well balanced, which has both up sides and down sides.

If my NPC casters for example don't have shield, misty step, fireball, counterspell as stables they get wasted petty quickly.

This limits variety in many ways. Sometimes I like to use NPC casters with a variety of spells just to try them out, or not have the same cookie cutter caster, but their CR is usually much lower.

My players also gravitate towards certain spells. The Wizard doesn't use a lot of conc spells (Bigbys Hand, Wall of Fire, and Hold Person tend to be his go to conc spells), the Bard uses a lot of conc spells though.

 

[Eirikrautha]

These type of posts make me glad that some people here who mock the table preferences of other posters, do not play at my table. You could have talked about expectations without the snark.

True, I could have. But then I would have missed the opportunity to tweak that subset of posters here that post virtually nothing but whines and complaints about how 5e is not like earlier editions or how broken it is or how they don't have fun playing it... etc. You know, the folks who are always negative about the game, rather than giving positive suggestions to help others have more fun, solve possible problems, make the game run more smoothly. Instead they just whine and complain and tell everyone how they just don't like this edition. You know what I mean, eh?

So how can I pass up making fun of those humorless, negative, prima donnas who, in every post, assume that their dissatisfaction with the new edition is the ONLY playstyle that matters to the readers here? That would be a crime!

Just keeping it real, homey...

 

[Ranes]

So how can I pass up making fun of those humorless, negative, prima donnas who, in every post, assume that their dissatisfaction with the new edition is the ONLY playstyle that matters to the readers here?

By using the 'ignore' function.

 

[Umbran]

So how can I pass up making fun of those humorless, negative, prima donnas who, in every post, assume that their dissatisfaction with the new edition is the ONLY playstyle that matters to the readers here? That would be a crime!

I suggest you try. Try hard. Because we expect you to show respect for your fellow posters, and failing to do so means you get moderator attention.

We can understand getting a little heated and going a touch too far, but willfully trolling or actively seeking to cheese folks off is not acceptable. We strongly suggest you not take that road again.

If you have questions about EN World policies, we suggest you read The Rules (conveniently linked on the bottom of every forum page), or ask questions of any of the mods by e-mail or private message.

 

[Celtavian]

Yeah, this has gotta be part of the non-Concentration-related issues. OA's are brutal in a game where the HP's are so low. If a critter gets hit on an OA because they want to disrupt your Concentration that hard, you've just decreased their life expectancy by a round or two.

Hit points aren't very low at higher level. In fact, they are rather high. I can't even take out higher level yard trash with a 5th level fireball. It takes fighters multiple rounds to kill one of the yard trash.

That's part of the strategy here. If he has to kill you one at a time, your party has PLENTY of time to react to the attacks.

No. They don't. He kills one person a round or two. If he hits with the breath weapon to open, a lair action, and a legendary attack, you're maybe down. Next round you're down for sure. Why do you think they have time to react to attacks? He's killing piecemeal quickly. Legendary Creature damage output is enough to kill anything except for barbarians barbarians in a round or two. Last legendary fight, cleric was down by round 2. Fighter by round 3. I think paladin lasted long enough to get fighter back to his feet, then was down when second breath weapon hit due to lucky recharge roll.

Not how it is working. There is no time to react. The Legendary Creature kills that fast.

Again, why aren't you taking non-concentration spells? The reason you gave was because they weren't "effective," and I pointed to that as part of the root of the issue: you're writing off a lot of magic that is really quite effective as if it's nothing.

Save spells aren't effective due to Legendary Resistance.
Concentration spells aren't effective due to one concentration slot.

You do the math as to what is available. You have to choose spells that do two things and are effective:
1. Don't require your concentration slot.
2. Don't give the creature a save that it will either make normally or using legendary resistance.

So give me all these hugely effective spells that meet the above criteria. I'm using scorching ray at the moment. It's the main I could find that would be effective.

I suppose if what you want to do is EVERYTHING, then yes, you are going to be disappointed. But wanting to do everything is wanting too much. Re-calibrate your expectations. Be OK with not dominating.

How are you translating that as wanting to do everything? I want to be able to play different casters with different characters. That would be pointless given the small selection of spells that is effective. You are not comprehending what I'm saying.

I want to do this:
1. Wizard 1: Evoker. Uses evocation spells to kill thing.
2. Sorcerer Character 2: Wants to use domination spells to control things.
3. Wizard character 3: Wants to use summon spells to summon creatures to fight.

Instead I'm playing "Wizard that does the same thing over and over again because the martials need their buffs and concentration is used for that. And don't cast anything on the Legendary Creature that requires a save. It auto-saves."

Can you imagine using your 9th level spell slot on a creature that can auto-save? Don't even bother doing it. Pick other spells that don't use your concentration or allow a save.

At least you have Foresight and Power Word Kill.

You're setting up this strawman of my play experience so you can easily knock it down without bothering to question if this caricature you've drawn has any resemblance to reality.

I've played 10 levels and this is my experience. I'm setting up no straw man. I'm telling you how it is has been playing for me. It does resemble the reality of what I've been dealing with.

Look at my earlier posts at low level when I thought wizards were grand. Somewhere along the line my experience changed. That change occurred when I started fighting Legendary Creatures that auto-saved and had special powers that required me to use my concentration slot to buff the martials to make them effective, making my options extremely limited.

This is how it has worked for me as I faced more legendary creatures.

It's fine to not do everything. It's fine if martials take full damage from energy attacks or have to use a bow every once in a while. They have the capacity to deal with this stuff (evasion, second wind, healing potions, ranged attacks). You don't need to do that for them.

It's not fine. They die quickly. Legendary Creatures can take a PC from max hit points to dead in a round or two. This is not ok. Not sure why you're telling me it is.

Evasion doesn't work against Con saves from cold or poison. Healing potions take actions that allow recharge checks. If something recharges, the 2d4+2 or 4d4+4 healing potion isn't going to help.

It's not fine they use a bow if not dex-based. A Legendary Creature's AC is built to require the best hit roll possible from the PC. If he using an inferior weapon that does low damage to attack a Legendary Creature, he is going to lose that fight. We're all going to go down because of it. Why do I know this? It has happened to us twice now.

I think part of our different experiences is because I don't expect my casters to be able to do everything all at once,

I never said all at once. Please stop assuming this.

and I trust my other party members to stand on their own two legs without me babying them with magical padding. A magic buff is nice, but it's hardly necessary. Same with a magic debuff. And I don't need to do both at once because either one is still quite nice.

Really? You want to watch them die. I guess I should just watch my party members die.

Gee Mr. Fighter, how come you didn't take all that breath weapon damage, the lair action, and the multiple legendary attacks? You shouldn't be dead because of it. It has reach? You can't fly? It moved 80 feet, used reach to attack you, then flew away? Sorry, I can't coddle you. Pull out your bow? You only have a 14 dex. Sorry, bud. You should have played an archer.

Really? That's how I'm supposed to play? Same with the defensive fighting paladin with the 8 dex who had to spend his points on Str, Con, and Cha? Sorry he didn't have enough to buy all good stats. My bad.

Hey paladin. boost your dex. You're making me waste my time casting that fly spell on you. I'm sick of the dragon kicking your butt with six attacks on you per round. It's tiresome. You should be able to take that damage.

Really. I don't understand you telling me this. Why are you assuming I don't know what I'm doing? I've tried all these strategies people on here are recommending. They don't work very well. My best strategy is cast fly on the martials and let them go after the creature. I can't allow a mobile flying creature to strafe us with attacks and hope they can kill it with inferior bow skills. I can't do it. The creatures damage output will far exceed the martials using inferior weapons.

My last combat had me making decisions between casting hypnotic pattern, phantasmal force, invisibility, and crown of madness for Concentration spells. I used HP, and I didn't really miss the other ones -- instead, I kept my distance and spammed Sleep spells and managed to deny the actions of a fortress full to bursting with downright AD&D-levels of monsters. And my melee allies weathered the storm of goblin-knives just fine without turning any of them or myself invisible (and being a sorcerer with a 12 AC, they did a fine job by and large of being in melee and keeping the hoard occupied). It was a difficult combat where I used up every single one of my spell slots and every Sorcery Point I had and finished the combat with 3 hp, and I felt effective and had interesting decisions to make on every turn.

I loved it when sleep worked. Those were great times. I love it when hypnotic pattern works on yard trash. I loved it when I could clear yard trash with thunderous wave. Made my life easier.

That was before the yard trash had 50 to 70 hit points each. Did advantage on all attacks in a group and extra damage in groups as well. Back in the good old days at level 5 or so.

That's a success. And I would not have enjoyed the combat nearly as much if I just spammed HP over and over again -- I would not have had interesting decisions to make.

That's just an anecdote, but it points to the problem not being intrinsic to the Concentration mechanic, but rather having more to do with playstyle, expectations, and experiences.

I miss the days when those spells were effective and I was having fun. It isn't the case anymore. The stuff I fight now resists a lot of what I use and requires more damage to kill.

 

[KarinsDad]

If it doesn't start becoming more fun, I doubt I'll play a caster again. I can't stomach casting one buff on the martials and making a third to a quarter of my spell list off limits.

I seriously suggest talking to your DM. Mention the house rule in the first post of this thread. Heck, I changed that house rule to just plain vanilla "no limit on number of concentration spells cast with no additional penalties". Nobody at my table (with 5 casters out of 6 PCs in two sessions) has even attempted it yet. Explain to your DM that with the limited number of higher level spells, and the 1 minute per level duration of concentration spells, and the fact that most spells save every round anyway which quickly drop offensive concentration spells, and the fact that concentration spells can be broken easily by taking damage, you might be able to get him to allow casters to cast multiple concentration spells. That appears to be the thorn that bothers you the most as it bothered me. Heck, most melee specialists can do their special abilities over and over again whenever they want until they run out of "charges", I don't see why spell casters lose options just because they cast a spell (I don't quite see why this is the case for Channel Divinity either).

DMs should at least listen to the concern. Your DM might not change the rule, or he could change it to 2 concentration spells at a time, or 3. But this concept that the game gets suddenly broken if a PC can cast more than one concentration spell at a time is horse hockey. That's not the case at all, no matter how many people claim it is.

Game on!