Critical Role Is Critical Role Scripted

[KYRON45]

I've had plenty of players do what makes sense for their PCs or what will be fun instead of making the optimal choice. I do it myself sometimes. You may not play with people that choose option 2, I do. All the time.

I would think my players were messing with me if they DIDN'T make sub optimal choices.

 

[Charlaquin]

Well, how do we even know that the PCs will arrive in "villageberg"?

I mean, technically we don’t know that for sure, but we can make some reasonable educated guesses. If, for example, villageberg is near the starting location of the adventure, there’s a good chance the players will travel there at some point. Especially if at any point an NPC hires them to, I don’t know, guard a shipment of supplies heading there or something.

And, suppose that the players do decide that their PCs go to this place, why are events being planned in advance of whatever actions the players might declare for their PCs?

So that the adventure isn’t entirely pulled out of the DM’s butt in the immediate moment. I’m just describing incredibly basic prep here.

I was responding to "coming up with a scenario, preparing some set-piece moments for significant story beats, seeding the adventure with relevant character spotlight moments, that kind of thing" and also "plot points", which I take to be a summary term for the first quoted phrase.

Yes, which I was illustrating is not railroading, much less scripting.

I don't know what "significant story beats" and "character spotlight moments" are, nor what planned "plot points" are, if they are not pre-determined plot points players are expected to encounter.

Hence why I gave an example.

I mean, I don't really see the difference between "pre-determined" and "planned".

Simple. Pre-determined means something will happen, which in the context of running a game of D&D, you would need to be ignoring player decisions to guarantee. Pre-planned just means you are making plans for if it happens. Which, again, is not hard to make reasonable educated guesses about. Generally the further in advance one makes such plans, the less reliable such guesses get, but as long as you’re not over-preparing, it’s really not that hard.

And I guess if the players are not expected to encounter them, then what is the planning for?

Again, so you don’t have to improvise literally everything. You either plan something in advance or you come up with it on the spot. Surely you’re not suggesting that anything aside from purely improvised gameplay is railroading?

What are "significant story beats" that are optional? Is the significance optional? How far in advance is it decided that such-and-such an event would be "significant"?

Significant as in big, dramatic. Something that might leave a strong impression. How far in advance it might be planned is something different DMs have different preferences for, and again, the further in advance you plan events, the less reliable any guesses you make about the players’ likely actions become. But, the alternative to making such guesses at all is to just wing everything.

More generally, I think the whole idea of "plan story elements that you don't necessarily intend to use", on top of its lurking contradiction, is bad GMing advice. There are better approaches available, I think.

I think the alternatives - don’t plan anything, or force things to go as you planned them - are both worse.

 

[pemerton]

I think the alternatives - don’t plan anything, or force things to go as you planned them - are both worse.

Those are not the only alternatives.

the alternative to making such guesses at all is to just wing everything.

I'm not sure what connotations you intend the verb "wing" to have here. You seem to be intending pejorative connotations, but that's not clear.

But there are ways of prepping, and using prep, other than planning for "plot points" and "story beats".

If, for example, villageberg is near the starting location of the adventure

<snip>

the adventure isn’t entirely pulled out of the DM’s butt in the immediate moment. I’m just describing incredibly basic prep here.

If the GM has already decided on "the adventure", then in my view we have railroading.

 

[Charlaquin]

Those are not the only alternatives.

Then enlighten me as to what other alternatives exist.

I'm not sure what connotations you intend the verb "wing" to have here. You seem to be intending pejorative connotations, but that's not clear.

Colloquially, to wing something is to attempt it without any preparation; to improvise or make up as one goes. It’s not necessarily negative, and good improvisational ability is an important DMing skill. But, ultimately, improvising is just planning an executing in immediate succession. A plan that must be executed in the moment of its inception is less likely to be a great plan than one made with the luxury of time and the opportunity for revision. Good preparation and good improvisation are both important DMing skills.

But there are ways of prepping, and using prep, other than planning for "plot points" and "story beats".

Ok, so you just have a problem with that specific word choice. Please assume I used whatever words to describe planning that you would have considered acceptable. My actual point is that preparation does not necessarily mean scripting.

If the GM has already decided on "the adventure", then in my view we have railroading.

You’re placing a tremendous amount of baggage on some very innocuous words. “The adventure” just refers broadly to the in-game activities the PCs (often referred to as “adventurers”) engage in. One need not have a specific sequence of events decided on to run an adventure that is not purely improvised.

 

[DEFCON 1]

If the GM has already decided on "the adventure", then in my view we have railroading.

Which is exactly why the rest of us say that railroading isn't always a bad thing. Because YOUR definition of "railroading" is a perfectly normal and acceptable method of planning and being an intelligent and well-prepared Dungeon Master.

So if I'm a "railroading DM" from your point of view, I thank you for the compliment.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Well I don't know what you mean by "forcing". I'm really thinking more about processes of play, and the expectations that are part of them.

By "railroading" I mean the GM authoring the key events of play - the "story beats" or "plot points" - in advance. I mean the players following the GM's breadcrumbs.

The "forcing" part of railroading is typically that any any action the players take that attempt to deviate from the pre-determined plot will either fail or end up back on the rails through DM fiat.

Your definition of "railroading" is very different from the conventional one. You should stop using "railroading" in this way if you want to be understood.

 

[billd91]

Seems like the topic has drifted a ways off Critical Role. I don't suppose people would consider making a separate thread to litigate, once again, the meaning of "railroad"?

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Seems like the topic has drifted a ways off Critical Role. I don't suppose people would consider making a separate thread to litigate, once again, the meaning of "railroad"?

We tried, but somehow we ended up back in this thread anyway...

 

[OB1]

So let's try a specific example from Critical Role. Spoilers ahead for Episodes through Campaign 3 Episode 100.




In Episode 98 (Live show at the greek) the party is in a dungeon trying to thwart the plans of the BBEG, an elf archmage named Ludinus. They are looking for something he needs for his plan to release a god killing entity from one of the moons of the planet. They discover an engine powered by a demon, and end up in a fight against the demon to destory it, believing that Ludinus is after the engine.

In the middle of the combat, Ludinus, who was also in the dungeon, shows up to help them fight it. Turns out he wasn't after the engine at all, but rather somethng else. After they defeat it, Ludinus invites the party to come with him to see what he was really after, a memory storing device that would show how the gods (who he hates) destroyed the ancient floating city of Aeor (the dungeon they are now in, burried under the ice in a far north land).

The party, who all have extremely personal reasons for hating Ludinus (he's responsible for the death of one players husband and father as well as the death of two other PCs) but quickly decide to follow him anyhow instead of attacking.

They go to the memory machine, where it is revealed that the next three episodes will be a live play of the memory with a guest DM (Brennen Lee Mulligan) that the PCs will see unfold.

Now, to be fair, because it was a live show and they were running out of time before the lights got turned off, it was essential that the plot reach the point it did by the end of the show. Their schedle meant that they couldn't leave it in a natural point, and then have another session before moving on to the 3 episode mini arc (which so far is excelent, tbh). But it still felt very weird and disjointed.

IMO, the players had to be aware of the situation ahead of time, because the choice they made at the end felt very out of character for the PCs. So, while I wouldn't say scripted, it did feel pre-planned in a way that is very rare for the game. Again, IMO, I think the mistake was about trying to fit the hand-off into the live show, where they had a fixed time limit on the episode for such an important moment to the story.

And that also made it feel a bit like a railroad (again, in a way that is very rare for the game) instead of a natural progression of events. Had they started a fight with Ludinus, and he wrecked them in a couple rounds of combat before easing up and 'politely' asked them to hear him out, I would have bought it more.

All that said, a single moment like this in a campaign that overall has done an incredible job of giving players agency while telling a single story across 100+ episodes doesn't tarnish what they do, it was just very jarring for me (sitting in the audience at the Greek) when it happened. The payoff though, has definitely been worth it.

 

[Charlaquin]

So let's try a specific example from Critical Role. Spoilers ahead for Episodes through Campaign 3 Episode 100.




In Episode 98 (Live show at the greek) the party is in a dungeon trying to thwart the plans of the BBEG, an elf archmage named Ludinus. They are looking for something he needs for his plan to release a god killing entity from one of the moons of the planet. They discover an engine powered by a demon, and end up in a fight against the demon to destory it, believing that Ludinus is after the engine.

In the middle of the combat, Ludinus, who was also in the dungeon, shows up to help them fight it. Turns out he wasn't after the engine at all, but rather somethng else. After they defeat it, Ludinus invites the party to come with him to see what he was really after, a memory storing device that would show how the gods (who he hates) destroyed the ancient floating city of Aeor (the dungeon they are now in, burried under the ice in a far north land).

The party, who all have extremely personal reasons for hating Ludinus (he's responsible for the death of one players husband and father as well as the death of two other PCs) but quickly decide to follow him anyhow instead of attacking.

They go to the memory machine, where it is revealed that the next three episodes will be a live play of the memory with a guest DM (Brennen Lee Mulligan) that the PCs will see unfold.

Now, to be fair, because it was a live show and they were running out of time before the lights got turned off, it was essential that the plot reach the point it did by the end of the show. Their schedle meant that they couldn't leave it in a natural point, and then have another session before moving on to the 3 episode mini arc (which so far is excelent, tbh). But it still felt very weird and disjointed.

IMO, the players had to be aware of the situation ahead of time, because the choice they made at the end felt very out of character for the PCs. So, while I wouldn't say scripted, it did feel pre-planned in a way that is very rare for the game. Again, IMO, I think the mistake was about trying to fit the hand-off into the live show, where they had a fixed time limit on the episode for such an important moment to the story.

And that also made it feel a bit like a railroad (again, in a way that is very rare for the game) instead of a natural progression of events. Had they started a fight with Ludinus, and he wrecked them in a couple rounds of combat before easing up and 'politely' asked them to hear him out, I would have bought it more.

All that said, a single moment like this in a campaign that overall has done an incredible job of giving players agency while telling a single story across 100+ episodes doesn't tarnish what they do, it was just very jarring for me (sitting in the audience at the Greek) when it happened. The payoff though, has definitely been worth it.

This comes across to me as a likely example of what I think the Forge crowd calls “participationism.” Whether or not the cast specifically knew that Ludinus would lead them to a memory machine to kick off the following mini-arc, they probably at least recognized that Ludinus showing up as an ally rather than an enemy was probably going somewhere and realized that, in that case, it would probably make for better content for them to go along with it. I think a lot of us can probably relate to the feeling of seeing that the DM is laying out an obvious hook and thinking, “maybe it’s a little contrived for my character to go along with this, but I want to see where it’s headed.” And I think actual plays by their nature tend to be high on this sort of participationism. We can argue about if it’s good DMing practice to lean into participation or not, but I certainly don’t think it harms the integrity of the show or equates to it being scripted.