Is D&D 4E too "far out" to expand the market easily?

Gnomes? Hmmm, it's been almost 24 hours since I saw one. There was a stone one in the garden section of my local department store, next to the watering cans..

Wait? You're arguing that LAWN gnomes are a good source to tell potential players? *LOL*, I can see it now "Hey bobby, you know that Traveller Gnome guy? Want to play one like that".
Half-orcs? There was one in Tolkien. And at least everyone knows what an orc is.

There are no Hellboys in Tolkien, or any other pre-1980's mythology that I'm aware of.

Again, I'm not sure the Uruk-Hai ARE half-orcs. How do you get a crossbreed that is bigger, stronger and more cunning than the parent races combined?

As for pre-1980 mythology, um, Merlin is a cambion and that's truly old school.

Here's the thing though, I disagree with Ruin Explorer...I think any potential gamer under the age of 30 has grown up with things like Dragonborn and Tieflings. In fact, I'd argue that gnomes and half-orcs are the "wahoo" race.

Besides, how come Dragonborn are considered wahoo when arguably the most FAMOUS D&D setting to the wider public, Dragonlance, actually had Dragonmen even before 3E. Draconians are a defining aspect of the setting and THIS setting is the one that the wider public knows most about.

I can point out Dragonmen being presented to the wider public in non-farcical manner unlike the gnomes, going back to at least the birth of Dragonlance. However, the same can't be said for gnomes.

So what makes Dragonborn more wahoo than gnomes?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Well, I guess you should look into the Malleus Maleficarum, written in 1486, which discussed the cambion, a half-human offspring of a succubus or incubus. Caliban, from the Tempest, is a cambion, for example.

So, I think they kinda pre-date Tolkein by a few centuries.

What's that got to do with whether Dragonborn/Hellboy should be in D&D as player races, and will help appeal to new players?

Devils and demons and rakasha are thousands-year-old concepts, and good stuff for a fantasy game. Just not "good" PC races, IMHO. And half doesn't make it any better.
 

What's that got to do with whether Dragonborn/Hellboy should be in D&D as player races, and will help appeal to new players?

That wasn't what you said, which was that you didn't know of any pre-1980 mythology that had "Hellboys." I pointed out a 500 year old source. Whether or not it should be in D&D as a player race is completely irrelevant to the post to which I replied.
 

Wait? You're arguing that LAWN gnomes are a good source to tell potential players? *LOL*, I can see it now "Hey bobby, you know that Traveller Gnome guy? Want to play one like that".

Again, I'm not sure the Uruk-Hai ARE half-orcs. How do you get a crossbreed that is bigger, stronger and more cunning than the parent races combined?

As for pre-1980 mythology, um, Merlin is a cambion and that's truly old school.

Here's the thing though, I disagree with Ruin Explorer...I think any potential gamer under the age of 30 has grown up with things like Dragonborn and Tieflings. In fact, I'd argue that gnomes and half-orcs are the "wahoo" race.

Besides, how come Dragonborn are considered wahoo when arguably the most FAMOUS D&D setting to the wider public, Dragonlance, actually had Dragonmen even before 3E. Draconians are a defining aspect of the setting and THIS setting is the one that the wider public knows most about.

I can point out Dragonmen being presented to the wider public in non-farcical manner unlike the gnomes, going back to at least the birth of Dragonlance. However, the same can't be said for gnomes.

So what makes Dragonborn more wahoo than gnomes?

I'm arguing that everyone knows what a gnome and a half-orc are. It's accessible and understandable and even CONNECTED to something outside the game and common to our culture -- our folk culture and literary culture.

I'm disinterested in comic books and gaming-related novels. I'm probably not the only potential audience member with zero interest in Hellboy, Dragonlance, etc.

But I'll shut up now, since obviously, substantial numbers of players DO like this stuff. Just let it be known that substantial numbers also hate it and don't want it in D&D. There's a perfect solution to this problem -- you play 4e, and I don't. Problem solved for both of us. :)

Whether or not WOTC is right to have it in or not, we'll never really know.
 

I'm arguing that everyone knows what a gnome and a half-orc are. It's accessible and understandable and even CONNECTED to something outside the game and common to our culture -- our folk culture and literary culture.

Too bad telling people to think of a lawn gnome or David the Gnome is the complete wrong image of a gnome. Yes you can say, well one of those guys but instead he's A and B and C" "So nothing like that gnome guy right" "Yeah!"

[/QUOTE]
 

My dislike of portions of 4Ed is no secret, but I'm also a realist.

I can't see the game as having anything but very good short term success. Some of the elements I dislike may even contribute to expanding the game's market far beyond the hobby as it is today.

In a sense, it almost seems designed to appeal to a larger, tangentially related market, even if it means that some of the legacy consumers don't come along for the ride.

I wouldn't be surprised if 4Ed gained 2 new players for each old one lost...at least for the next year or so.

Once again, Danny and I agree (hmmm big surprise) the system is built for speed not comfort. However, as I get more and more familiar with the system it has occurred to me that this system is easier to hack apart than any other and almost BEGS to be done so to in order to achieve the feel that you want. Really its not too far fetched to think it was a fail safe built into the system by the designers in order to ensure it was successful. Love it or hate it, it's going to be successful and its going to bring another facet of audience into the game, increasing the market and building the juggernaut. This has happened since OD&D, every new edition has strove to bring in more consumers and every edition has done just that.

If you have been paying attention to the non-gaming blogs, there are several old gamers that have come back into the fold with 4E, why, it's easier to do a pick-up game than with 3.X (too many rules), 2E & 1E (Too few books available readily and no future support.). But more than anything, 4E is closer to 1E than the previous two incarnations, simply because of the lighter rule load. I have played and loved (and hated) every edition of D&D, I will no doubt have the same reaction (and have already had) those feeling for this edition. Life goes on, and so does the game. Is it the same, no, is better, maybe - the jury is still out, is it D&D, yep, for better or worse - you may kiss your bride.
 

Now, fantasy is inherently "far out" to some degree, but what I'm wondering is, is 4E's basic setting so far out that it loses touch with reality entirely and becomes hard to relate to?

A common element to much fantasy, sword and sorcery, or even myth and legends is to have the hero(es) begin in a “conventional world” before moving into the fantastic “unconventional world”. This can be as subtle as The Shire vs. the world at large or as obvious as “the contemporary real world” vs. Narnia.

The conventional world is usually meant to be something that the audience can relate to and readily “get”. The contrast between the conventional and the unconventional highlights the fantastic nature of the fantasy elements. The unconventional world can be as gonzo as you like, because the protagonist from the conventional world—who, like the audience, is also unfamiliar with the unconventional world—is there for the audience to relate to.

I don’t know that any edition of D&D (or any RPG) has really done much in the way of emphasizing a “conventional world”. Many DMs manage to do it, but not because the game suggested it.

Would this make a game more accessible to the uninitiated and help grow the hobby? Who knows? But I’m leaning towards, “yes”.
 

Free Associating: Tieflings -- The Mark of Cain, the Faustian Bargain, the shame that continues for generations, discrimination based on appearance. There is a lot of room to work with some memes here. This is where we can park the "I am discriminated against though I still fight for good" that those angst-based White Wolf games got a market share on (Vampire, Werewolf, etc., made money).

Dragonborn -- Martial good guys, strong, old empire, related to ancient sentient beings (Dragons! As in Dungeons & . . .). And this time they do not end up either butt ugly or terminally shy. They are actually natural leaders (in many senses of the word). Thus you get the "Big Tough Hero" mold that is universally popular. And you don't have to be a product of rape at some point in your ancestry!

Heck, people have wanted to play the Dragon since 1st ed., otherwise Gary Gygax would not have had to write against the idea in the 1st ed. DMG itself.

Come to think of it, Torog becomes the God that has a legit portfolio (prisoners being kept in a dungeon) but goes too far...perhaps he wants the whole *world* to be a Dungeon, because no one can be trusted with freedom. Hmmm...Dungeons. As in ...& Dragons.

I think the only problem with my old guard friends is that we are so damned jaded that we tend to look at the racial stats first, and flavour second. Those that want the strength bonus *would* play a Talking Toaster if it was the strongest race, and worry about the flavour later.

On to other races:

Eladrin -- Fairy Tales, this will strike a cord. And it has been critically underdeveloped in D&D, so I am pleased to see more Fey love in this iteration.

Elf -- Forest archers. Robin Hood, Legolas from the movie, etc.

Half-Elf -- A harder sell, but the possible "Face" character. Tanis Half-Elven from Dragonlance, Aragorn has some elven blood and ended up as King, etc. I actually see Half-Elf as a bit of a weaker theme than most and was mildly surprised to see it in there. I see it as a bit of a sacred cow.

Halfling -- Well Bilbo Baggins and his nephew are the Big Archtypes here, but there is room for those that like small sneaky characters that outwit larger (and usually dumber) opponents.

Dwarf -- Miners, Fighters. And since Fighter is now more the Defender Tank than the Offense dude, Dwarf fits the mold rather well. I noted the "five o'clock shadow" on the female dwarf picture as a compromise on the "do female dwarves have beards" debate. The new trope is that they started as a slave race (like the Gith) so that may cause a change in how the race is perceived in 4e. Mind you, they also have the "wise elders" thing going that makes them good clerics. Durkon! Order of the Stick goodness, but that won't attract new people that haven't gamed before. Hmmm....

Humans -- The versatile race. And still the standard for people that don't want to play the races that they don't "get". Human is never a bad choice for any class.

So of the races, I would say Humans, Halflings, Dragonborn, Tieflings Elves and Eladrin will prove popular among the new players/buyers. Dwarves and Half-Elves less so. But I could be totally wrong on this one. Let's see what happens in the next decade.
 

If there is any additional 'risk' associated with making dragonborn et al core, it is a calculated risk. Do you think Wizards put a dragonborn on the cover of the PHB at a whim? Or do you think that their copious market research dollars told them it would be a good move?

As for the medium and long-term effect of adding these more outlandish races to the D&D canon, it seems to me that there is more to be gained than lost by stretching D&D's boundaries a little. I honestly can't imagine today's new gamers being put *off* by playing a dragon-man or demonspawn.

If we're talking anecdotal, I've started one new 4ed group, and out of 4 PC's, we have two dwarves, an eladrin, and a dragonborn. The eladrin player (my wife) loves gnomes with a passion and almost always had a gnome PC in previous editions... but she was only momentarily bummed to find that gnomes currently aren't core. One shrug of the shoulders later and her brand new wizard was protecting the dreadful secret of her family's wealth and blowing kobolds away on the battlemat. Job done, as far as I'm concerned.
 

I don’t know that any edition of D&D (or any RPG) has really done much in the way of emphasizing a “conventional world”. Many DMs manage to do it, but not because the game suggested it.

I think that is because the conventional world, the one our heroes escape from, is our own real world. Layering another conventional world on top of a fantastic one seems somewhat redundant, since we always have our own world to relate to.

I've tried the "Narnia" angle a few times, but the time spent on emphasising the conventional world was seen as somewhat wasted by the players, who more than anything wanted to get to the fantastical world.

Of course, there are other ways of doing it, it might be a case of me just being crap at it. :D

/M
 

Remove ads

Top