Its not that kids ever had a deeper understanding of mythology, but there are symbols and archetypes that belong to the words hero, adventure, quest, etc.. Horned half-humans who look evil, demonic and sinister (and every detail of their artwork so far does) and dragonmen do not match the afore mentioned words. Its nice to have the possibility to play them, but core? Come on!
Is D&D 4E too "far out" to expand the market easily?
- Thread starter Ruin Explorer
- Start date
Its not that kids ever had a deeper understanding of mythology, but there are symbols and archetypes that belong to the words hero, adventure, quest, etc.. Horned half-humans who look evil, demonic and sinister (and every detail of their artwork so far does) and dragonmen do not match the afore mentioned words. Its nice to have the possibility to play them, but core? Come on!
The Little Raven
First Post
Well, since they do market research that is unrivaled in the industry, I'd say they probably know their market a little better than we armchair theorists do.
It was clearly calculated.
There is evidence that the number of people who have played scaly races- even anecdotally- is quite large. They exist in D&D books, 3rd party products, and homebrews, so its probably safe to assume that scaly fandom lags only slightly behind elf luv.
Putting Dragonborn on the cover was like a sticker shouting "New and Improved!"
Furthermore, it let scaly lovers know they had something in the Core PHB they could latch onto immediately, instead of waiting for a template, a subsequent WotC or 3rd party book, homebrews, or MM player friendly stats.
(like Gnome fans do)
The Little Raven
First Post
To be clear, the dragonborn on the cover is there only because foreign retailers/distributors were worried about the original Tiefling cover.
Gnomes should have worked on their schmoozing a little more.
Ruin Explorer
Legend
I'm sure they know it better than we do, but y'know, market research has lead so many companies into so many terrible errors, even when "armchair" theorists have be telling them "No, no, no." that I'm not sure what you're saying has much real meaning.
Blizzard with WoW are an example of this. Blizzard do market research virtually unrivalled in the industry (only Bungie under MS did more). Yet they were totally blown away by WoW's success - their market research had indicated it would be a game of middling success, and whilst bringing in a lot of money, would be more likely "comparable" to other games, or a little higher in population. Not the multi-million player juggernaut they found. Luckily they had the money to slam up servers and churn out discs at a rate of knots and expanded with the market (though their CS lagged a year and a half behind because they couldn't recruit fast enough).
Further, even after release, they've been told "This is what you should do" by the public, at length, and very rationally (I'm not just talking one crazy screaming-filled thread on their messageboards, but the more rational arguments and so on), and have ignored it, often openly poo-poo'd it, and then, shock, a few months after that, apparently realized it was right and implemented it. The lack of real competition has given them the breathing room to do so without losing customers, but in a more competative market, it wouldn't have.
Maybe WotC are in the same place. Even if their market research isn't perfect, their market dominance is so assured that they can "error-correct" later based on post-release research, rather than needing to get it perfect "out of the gate".
Regarding the "scaly" debate, I think WotC were actually smart to put a scaly race in core. Those saying there is considerably desire for such a race are spot-on, and I do think it'll help 4E, even with the "far out"-ness. I think the choice of a draconic race was smart, too. I just think the "fatdragon" look they chose, with no tails, horns, neck or wings was, well, a bit lame, and not likely to strongly appeal to the "scaly" fans. It doesn't appeal to me, and I've played a dozen lizardman-types over the years.
Maggan
Writer for CY_BORG, Forbidden Lands and Dragonbane
knifie_sp00nie
First Post
Six pages and I don't think anyone has mentioned the dragonborn= klingon connection? Wasn't Worf so popular that they brought him on board DS9 when that show needed a ratings boost?
I don't see how DnD is more out there than any other current fantasy. It's a well established trope that any humanoid alien will be the exaggerated embodiment of a particular human trait or two, but otherwise just like us. It allows a certain level of racism without using real races. Why are all the classic fantasy races white? Maybe it's just the european roots. Could there be something else?
Love it or hate it, the new Star Wars films were very cosmopolitan, with jedi from all over contributing. The Inuyasha anime has a half-demon as the lead protagonist and adventures in a world full of non-humans. Full Metal Alchemist has a warforged as the secondary protagonist. All those superhero movies that have come out over the past several summers have featured freaks from all walks of life.
What part of DnD is so fantastic that a person open to the fantasy genre couldn't comprehend? What's new and different that hasn't been explored in other media before?
I don't see how DnD is more out there than any other current fantasy. It's a well established trope that any humanoid alien will be the exaggerated embodiment of a particular human trait or two, but otherwise just like us. It allows a certain level of racism without using real races. Why are all the classic fantasy races white? Maybe it's just the european roots. Could there be something else?
Love it or hate it, the new Star Wars films were very cosmopolitan, with jedi from all over contributing. The Inuyasha anime has a half-demon as the lead protagonist and adventures in a world full of non-humans. Full Metal Alchemist has a warforged as the secondary protagonist. All those superhero movies that have come out over the past several summers have featured freaks from all walks of life.
What part of DnD is so fantastic that a person open to the fantasy genre couldn't comprehend? What's new and different that hasn't been explored in other media before?
Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
Hmm. I brought that point (Dragonborn = Klingons, not the Worf/DS9 part) _somewhere_ but it might not have been this thread.
Elrohir_of_Kellemar
First Post
My preferences
Yes, fouth edition is too "far out" for my tastes. I prefer a more "mundane" fantasy setting. I also prefer adventures around 3rd to 9th level as opposed to "save the world" adventures. That's just my preferences. Maybe I'm in a very small minority and the flavor of 4E will be exactly what the majority out there wants. We'll have to wait and see.
For me, and others like me, it is sad to see that a game that we grew up enjoying is transforming away from what drew us in the first place. This looks like a good "Superhero" game. It's just tough to see the flavor of the game change so much.
Again, the majority may see 4E as great progress. I've been trying to look for the positives (and have found many). You can't please everyone.
Yes, fouth edition is too "far out" for my tastes. I prefer a more "mundane" fantasy setting. I also prefer adventures around 3rd to 9th level as opposed to "save the world" adventures. That's just my preferences. Maybe I'm in a very small minority and the flavor of 4E will be exactly what the majority out there wants. We'll have to wait and see.
For me, and others like me, it is sad to see that a game that we grew up enjoying is transforming away from what drew us in the first place. This looks like a good "Superhero" game. It's just tough to see the flavor of the game change so much.
Again, the majority may see 4E as great progress. I've been trying to look for the positives (and have found many). You can't please everyone.
I wouldn't say that it has changed so dramatically in such a short time. I believe each consecutive edition of the game has headed further and further out based on what people like to do with their characters.
Chainmail was originally very medieval-centric. Original D&D added more of the LOTR aspect and set it in dungeons. AD&D made it into a bit more LOTR type. 2e bumped up the volume on spells and the effectiveness of spell casting classes. 3e turned things into the uber god characters. 4e has simply forced a balance to that aspect and added a greater emphasis to non-humanoid races. I think the progression has been fairly steady and not sudden at all.
Also note that 4e has actually kept the original cosmology, but progressed it through a timeline, showing how the new cosmology and world view evolved out of the old.
Chainmail was originally very medieval-centric. Original D&D added more of the LOTR aspect and set it in dungeons. AD&D made it into a bit more LOTR type. 2e bumped up the volume on spells and the effectiveness of spell casting classes. 3e turned things into the uber god characters. 4e has simply forced a balance to that aspect and added a greater emphasis to non-humanoid races. I think the progression has been fairly steady and not sudden at all.
Also note that 4e has actually kept the original cosmology, but progressed it through a timeline, showing how the new cosmology and world view evolved out of the old.
