Is D&D an entry level game?

[Bullgrit]

I've never heard of or seen those games. That poses a problem for an entry-level game.

Bullgrit

 

[JoeGKushner]

I've never heard of or seen those games. That poses a problem for an entry-level game.

Bullgrit

If we go by entry level = popular then you're absolutely right.

 

[Psion]

Heck, the first edition Tri-Stat game is pretty simple.

Again, simple is not the holy grail of criteria for entry level games. Simple enough is good, but I don't think that you can afford to take some liberties with entry level games that light games written for experienced players take.

 

[jdrakeh]

I've never heard of or seen those games. That poses a problem for an entry-level game.

To be fair, no, it doesn't. Your lack of knowledge doesn't reflect on the games.

 

[Bullgrit]

If we go by entry level = popular then you're absolutely right.

I was thinking more of entry level = obviously available. I regularly frequent two local game shops, book stores, toy stores, and the games section of various department stores, but this thread is the first I've heard of these games. If they are not in at least one of these open places, they might as well not exist for an enty-level, would-be RPGer.

Bullgrit

 

[jdrakeh]

If they are not in at least one of these open places, they might as well not exist for an enty-level, would-be RPGer.

No, it means that they may as well not exist for you. T&T is on the shelf of all four game stores here where I live and Meddling Kids is in at least one of them. Also T&T has been in print and on store shelves in various editions since 1975 - it's a well-known game. Again, your lack of knowledge about a certain game or a given hobby store's failure to stock it, are not problems that you can rightfully attribute to the game itself.

 

[Dragonhelm]

Someone once suggested to me that some of the tenets of D&D would have been better placed in a book on advanced combat techniques, and in that I agree. Attacks of opportunity especially.

D&D these days reads like a computer manual at times. "If X, then Y....". That's not easy by any means.

What I would like to see with D&D is a basic system, one that is easy to manipulate, with optional combat rules for those who want that extra level. In a sense, something as basic almost as Castles and Crusades with the option to add whatever level of complexity that you want in a modular fashion.

 

[Bullgrit]

Your lack of knowledge doesn't reflect on the games.

Again, your lack of knowledge about a certain game or a given hobby store's failure to stock it, are not problems that you can rightfully attribute to the game itself.

I wasn't referring to anything about the merits of the games themselves. They may be the greatest games ever published. I don't know. I was just talking about the game's status as an entry-level game. The entry to anything needs to be obvious, or at least not well hidden.

Like wargames -- I would suggest that HeroScape is a good entry-level game to wargames/miniature games. (Caveat: I've never played HeroScape.) From what I've read of it, it is simple enough to pick up quickly, complicated enough to keep interest for a while, and most off all (from the perspective I'm talking about) readily available on many store shelves.

But I'll stay out of this discussion now, because it seems that I'm being read as kicking someone's favorite game. And that always leads to flamewars. Sorry.

Bullgrit

 

[jdrakeh]

The entry to anything needs to be obvious, or at least not well hidden.

I know what you meant, I just wanted to point out that you personally not being exposed to said games has no bearing on whether other people have been and that your failure to have been exposed to said games has little to do with the games themselves (which you suggested was the case in your second post).

But I'll stay out of this discussion now, because it seems that I'm being read as kicking someone's favorite game.

Oh, I didn't get that from your posts, merely that that you were suggesting your own experiences hold true for everybody and that the games themselves were responsible for your not having heard of them. I didn't think that you were 'knocking' the games, merely ascribing anecdotal experience as though it were a universal truth.

 

[Psion]

I know what you meant, I just wanted to point out that you personally not being exposed to said games has no bearing on whether other people have been and that your failure to have been exposed to said games has little to do with the games themselves (which you suggested was the case in your second post).

I don't think the point was ever that his personal exposure is an issue, and to suggest it was is a bit of a strawman. It's the supposition that he hasn't seen it anywhere might mean that is a suggestion that it's not out there in a lot of places. I would have never known about either if I didn't travel in the right circles, either, and I have yet to see either on the shelves of a comic or game store or the local borders.

I didn't think that you were 'knocking' the games, merely ascribing anecdotal experience as though it were a universal truth.

And I think you are being a bit hasty to jump his case suggesting that his observation has no correlation to the market at large. Yes, it's true that we can't always assume that what holds true at our FLGS holds true everywhere. But I don't think it's an "out there" claim in the least bit to suppose that other games don't have the market presence that D&D does. Or even White Wolf. And it's market presence is a very practical consideration in how well it serves the role of an entry level game.