Is D&D/D20 Childish and Immature?

[Mathew_Freeman]

The good comics I'm talking about that I've managed to read recently include:

Preacher (yes, gratuitous sex and violence, but a very good idea behind the whole thing, and some very interesting writing on the subject of religion)

Top Ten (a great piece of sci-fi, by which I mean someone with a very good idea who followed through with it to an entertaining conclusion)

The Dark Knight Returns (hopefully Batman vs Superman will draw a lot from this)

Kingdom Come (The Justice League several years on has to deal with their out of control children, chilling stuff)

...and these are just the examples of things I can think of off the top of my head. I'd also include the Authority series ("No, we don't believe in allowing supervillains to get away to preserve some sense of status quo. We prefer to kill them.") and probably a lot more that I haven't had the chance to read yet!

This does tie in to Is D&D immature...are comics immature because they deal with people in silly costumes fighting, or are they mature because they can deal with big issues like religion, responsibility etc in an entertaining way?

 

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

DnD, like any game, is ultimately what the players and GM make of it. The rules help get you there but they aren't themselves the path or the destination.

One thing I did find funny was the quoted post about how the user left ENWorld because people here don't respond well to people who whine and moan about d20. Well imagine that, people in forums devoted to d20 not putting up with people who come here to whine about that system!

 

[WizarDru]

We just chose to use D&D as its the tool we're most comfortable using, and because, unlike a system like HarnMaster (created with a very specific setting in mind), it was easily adaptable. Could we have used HarnMaster? Yes. But it's an unfamiliar tool. For our purposes, it was more like a set of locking pliers than an adjustable wrench...

Well, while I agree that ruleset are only tools, some tools work better for some purposes than others. The d20 system and D&D works well for some, but poorly for others. I have a fantasy campaign that ran in GURPS for over a decade...but it could just as easily have been done in D&D 3E. I couldn't do it in 1e, however, as that tool was too inflexible to meet my needs. The same applies to Rolemaster, and presumably to Harnmaster and many other systems.

D&D 3E isn't just familiar to me, it works extremely well. Far better, in fact, than many competing toolsets...for my particular need. So far, I find other systems handle some genres better. Superheroes works better in other systems, IMHO, and modern games, as well. d20 Modern may change my mind, but for right now, I don't think so.

 

[Agglomérante]

Rulesets are only tools.

The campaign I play in is an ongoing work over a decade in the making, and it really doesn't matter what medium is used to describe it. D&D, RM, HarnMaster, Hero, GURPS - any one of these could be used to describe the goings on in the gameworld.

Right on

It's all one medium, like radio, and the game systems are brands, like Sony. This thread is audiophiles arguing the merits of one stereo system over another.

Agglomérante

(INTP too, and it's not a coincidence ...)

 

[Mobius]

This thread is audiophiles arguing the merits of one stereo system over another.

That is precisely what this reminded me of - the letters section of Stereophile where a bunch of audiophiles are bitching over the .001% difference between one amplifier and another when both are leaps and bounds better than any basic amplifier in the mass market.

Let's face it. RPGs are a pretty cool hobby. Not, perhaps, with the general public (yet), but what other hobby allows you to collaboratively create a fictional world through acting and writing? It is literally a unique hobby all the way around. The different slices are what makes RPGs interesting and I haven't found one system yet that I couldn't eventually put to use in my campaigns.

 

[Hawkshere]

Just as a quick disclaimer - Harn has even less to do with nudie/cheesecake type fantasy than D&D. You won't find Avalanche style covers on Harn products, hehe. So that particular KK rant has nothing to do with Harn. There are any number of reasons why a D&D player may not like Harn, but chainmail bikinis aren't one of them.

KK can be an interesting poster when he wants to, as he's occassionally contributed very thoughtful and relevant posts. However, his basic nature as a poster on this board is that of a troll, and he's usually too lazy to bother being anything else. His objection to Planescape is a classic example of just this kind of intellectual laziness. The funny thing is, when he's talking about something he really does know about, he can exibit considerable expertise. The irony lies in presuming to extend that veneer of expertise beyond its true scope. Fortunately, its not hard to tell the difference between his informed opinions and his ignorant "facts".

p.s. Planescape != Bloodwar

 

[takyris]

Game mechanics CAN be inherently immature, though.

Ex: Matrix Wannabe RPG -- every time you shoot a grunt you get 1d6 Cool Points, which can be later spent on sweet martial arts moves. When struck, you take hit point damage, and are knocked back 3d6 feet -- meaning that it IS a strong hit that sends you flying back, but you don't take damage. This leads to a really goofy system.

Not saying that D&D is an immature system -- but some rule mechanics in some games do promote silly or immature behavior.

Heck, one could argue that monster-death-based experience promotes violent roleplaying more than story-based experience.

All that said, while hit points don't always give the image I want, the d20 mechanic has served my game well, and I like it. And my game has humor elements, mystery elements, political elements, and horror elements. My biggest d20 problem is figuring out how to handle Bluff and Sense Motive in tricky spots -- what level penalties to give, how to get players to accept a poor Sense Motive roll against an enemy's Bluff, (or whether they should be forced to do so) etc.

_Tacky

 

[Zappo]

p.s. Planescape != Bloodwar

Even though I risk a tangent here... I sincerely don't understand what's wrong with the Blood War. Or is evil supposed to be monolithic?

 

[Psion]

Even though I risk a tangent here... I sincerely don't understand what's wrong with the Blood War. Or is evil supposed to be monolithic?

It's a taste thing, I imagine. The blood war got introduced into D&D at the same time as fiends received their "alternate names" that many old-school diehards so rue. Perhaps it's a "piggyback hatred."

FYI, this came before Planescape, though I do feel that Planescape made the best of the situation, by extrapolating and fleshing out the concept.

Personally, I think the blood war had some cool potential. BUT (and like Jennifer Lopez, this is a big but) I don't like the idea that the bloodwar would be the sole priority of fiends and the fiends would not find any value in tormenting mortals on the material planes. That just totally belies the nature of fiends AFAIAC.

That said, that particular flavor statement I easily ignored.

 

[barsoomcore]

Personally, I think the blood war had some cool potential. BUT (and like Jennifer Lopez, this is a big but) I don't like the idea.

And sometimes, a big but is what it's all about, isn't it? Big buts with cool potential.

Sorry, I'll go sit in the corner now. I've been bad.