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Is D&D/D20 Childish and Immature?
- Thread starter SHARK
- Start date
Tom Cashel
First Post
You use the word "retarded" like it's the only one you know
Main Entry: re.tard
Pronunciation: ri-'tärd
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French or Latin; Middle French retarder, from Latin retardare, from re- + tardus slow
Date: 15th century
transitive senses
1 : to slow up especially by preventing or hindering advance or accomplishment: IMPEDE
2 : to delay academic progress by failure to promote
intransitive senses : to undergo retardation
synonym see DELAY
- re.tard.er noun
Main Entry: re.tard.ed
Pronunciation: ri-'tär-d&d
Function: adjective
Date: 1895
: slow or limited in intellectual or emotional development or academic progress
Judging from the fact that Kaptain Kantrip seems to resist everything that has happened in the evolution of D&D since the first edition and would like to "prevent or hinder [the] advance" of the game so that it more closely resembles a previous incarnation, I have to conclude that he is himself, in some sense, "retarded."
[Do me a favor and find a new verbal tic, chump. Using that one like it's going out of style doesn't help your argument--what there is of it--in the least.
]
Main Entry: re.tard
Pronunciation: ri-'tärd
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French or Latin; Middle French retarder, from Latin retardare, from re- + tardus slow
Date: 15th century
transitive senses
1 : to slow up especially by preventing or hindering advance or accomplishment: IMPEDE
2 : to delay academic progress by failure to promote
intransitive senses : to undergo retardation
synonym see DELAY
- re.tard.er noun
Main Entry: re.tard.ed
Pronunciation: ri-'tär-d&d
Function: adjective
Date: 1895
: slow or limited in intellectual or emotional development or academic progress
Judging from the fact that Kaptain Kantrip seems to resist everything that has happened in the evolution of D&D since the first edition and would like to "prevent or hinder [the] advance" of the game so that it more closely resembles a previous incarnation, I have to conclude that he is himself, in some sense, "retarded."
[Do me a favor and find a new verbal tic, chump. Using that one like it's going out of style doesn't help your argument--what there is of it--in the least.
]Bragg Battleaxe
First Post
If you want an interesting comparison of two games, that both essentially serve the same purpose but are viewed very differently by our society, then compare roleplaying and golf. One is essentially considered weird or silly at best, while the other is considered a right of passage for serious business people everywehre. I'm not slamming golf, I just think its interesting that this dichotomy exists.
WizarDru
Adventurer
Re: Re: Is D&D/D20 Childish and Immature?
I'm guessing you don't read or haven't read many comic books in the last decade or so. That's a pretty broad brush to paint with, and I think you'd be suprised the kind of intelligent writing that you can find in comic books, with or without superheroes. If you're interested, we can start a separate thread to discuss this. I think you'd be well rewarded.
Hmmm. Well, this sounds like your attributing the behaviors of some of the rudest people you've met to the whole, which is unfortunate, although it's your perogative.
Having been playing since 1980 (as quite a few of us on this board have been), I think I can say with some certainty that you're wrong, 'twinks' exist in every game I've ever played. Whether it's MERP, GURPS, EotPT, T&T, Star Frontiers, Bushido, V&V or Hero...it's still the same. Now, I also think you're mixing and matching powergamers with disruptive 'wish-fulfillers', of which the game saw many back in the early 80s. The former see the game as a tactical exercise, which is a valid playstyle, and merely seek to play the game as optimally as possible. The latter, which you lump in with them, are jerks who want to use a game to tell stories of how they beat a dragon with a 1st level character. It's been my experience that such players drop out of the game after a short while; you can only play a character with solid 18s for so long, before the whole exercise becomes a waste of time. The former CAN be immature, but isn't necessarily.
As for the most irritating players coming from D&D, well...if there are 2 million active D&D players, and only 25,000 playing game 'X', then you're going to see more of every kind of player for D&D. I'm sure there are D&D 'snobs'. Every game system, in every variation, has it's proponents. There are many players who are still into 1st edition rules, and defend them vigorously. All you need to do to illustrate this is start one of the classic 'battle' thread subjects, such as "GURPS vs. D&D" or "1e vs. 2e vs. 3e" or "Rolemaster vs. D&D" or....well, this thread.
The lesson you should walk away from this thread with is this: If the only way you can make yourself feel better is to denigrate others, then you're not going to win many hearts or minds. KK is doing more to dissuade people from trying Harn than any single source I've seen in 20 years of gaming. Which is too bad, because it always looked like an interesting setting.
SurgicalSteel said:
I'm guessing you don't read or haven't read many comic books in the last decade or so. That's a pretty broad brush to paint with, and I think you'd be suprised the kind of intelligent writing that you can find in comic books, with or without superheroes. If you're interested, we can start a separate thread to discuss this. I think you'd be well rewarded.
Hmmm. Well, this sounds like your attributing the behaviors of some of the rudest people you've met to the whole, which is unfortunate, although it's your perogative.
Having been playing since 1980 (as quite a few of us on this board have been), I think I can say with some certainty that you're wrong, 'twinks' exist in every game I've ever played. Whether it's MERP, GURPS, EotPT, T&T, Star Frontiers, Bushido, V&V or Hero...it's still the same. Now, I also think you're mixing and matching powergamers with disruptive 'wish-fulfillers', of which the game saw many back in the early 80s. The former see the game as a tactical exercise, which is a valid playstyle, and merely seek to play the game as optimally as possible. The latter, which you lump in with them, are jerks who want to use a game to tell stories of how they beat a dragon with a 1st level character. It's been my experience that such players drop out of the game after a short while; you can only play a character with solid 18s for so long, before the whole exercise becomes a waste of time. The former CAN be immature, but isn't necessarily.
As for the most irritating players coming from D&D, well...if there are 2 million active D&D players, and only 25,000 playing game 'X', then you're going to see more of every kind of player for D&D. I'm sure there are D&D 'snobs'. Every game system, in every variation, has it's proponents. There are many players who are still into 1st edition rules, and defend them vigorously. All you need to do to illustrate this is start one of the classic 'battle' thread subjects, such as "GURPS vs. D&D" or "1e vs. 2e vs. 3e" or "Rolemaster vs. D&D" or....well, this thread.
The lesson you should walk away from this thread with is this: If the only way you can make yourself feel better is to denigrate others, then you're not going to win many hearts or minds. KK is doing more to dissuade people from trying Harn than any single source I've seen in 20 years of gaming. Which is too bad, because it always looked like an interesting setting.
CleverName
Explorer
Mobius said:
Amen brother!
I live in Athens GA and I love to point out to those who raise an eyebrow at my hobby, that I could take my shirt off, shave off my loverly gut hair, paint myself red w/ a big white "G" on my flabby belly and stand in front of 80,000+ people barking like a dog --everyone would consider THAT hobby socially acceptable!!!
(I apologize for anyone I blinded with that mental picture.)
********
In gaming terms, I once was playing Clan War, setting up a nice flanking maneuver on my opponant when two 30+ year-olds sat down next to us. They both pulled out Pokemon cards and started playing.
My CW opponant, wispered to me, "Dude, those guys are playing a kids game!"
I said, "Dude, WE're playing with painted army men!"
(Go Dogs, BTW..)
Mathew_Freeman
First Post
I would be interested on starting a thread about decent superhero comics and storylines from recent years.
Plus I agree that the way KK paints Harn, I'm surely not even gong to try and find out about it. Which is probably a shame.
Frankly, if I want pictures of naked women, I will buy legal porn. If I want violence, I will watch The Matrix, Pulp Fiction or a hundred other violent films that I own. If I want everything that D&D and other games provide, I will play them.
Humph.
BTW, this is the first thread I've posted on with actual flaming going on...
Plus I agree that the way KK paints Harn, I'm surely not even gong to try and find out about it. Which is probably a shame.
Frankly, if I want pictures of naked women, I will buy legal porn. If I want violence, I will watch The Matrix, Pulp Fiction or a hundred other violent films that I own. If I want everything that D&D and other games provide, I will play them.
Humph.
BTW, this is the first thread I've posted on with actual flaming going on...
CleverName
Explorer
Re: Re: Re: Is D&D/D20 Childish and Immature?
I'm the first one to admit that there _are_ some crappy rulesets out there and I have NO trouble voicing my opinion of them. All game systems are not created equal, some rules stink, and rules DO affect gameplay, etc.
There are also aspect of standard, vanilla, PHB, D&D that I don't like and strike me as childish, such as the faux American Indian sounding names like, Starsong Tumblebottom. Don't get me started on aspects of Forgotten Realms...
These are all beliefs I share freely, if anyone asks.
The fact is there are some gamers that I really respect and like as people who play these games AND HAVE A GREAT TIME. They don't suck, even if their tastes send me into a diabetic coma. To each his or her own.
Straying over that line, (system vs. player of the system) is very easy to do -- especially in emails, chats and 'boards. I think THAT is the crux of the problem here.
I'm the first one to admit that there _are_ some crappy rulesets out there and I have NO trouble voicing my opinion of them. All game systems are not created equal, some rules stink, and rules DO affect gameplay, etc.
There are also aspect of standard, vanilla, PHB, D&D that I don't like and strike me as childish, such as the faux American Indian sounding names like, Starsong Tumblebottom. Don't get me started on aspects of Forgotten Realms...
These are all beliefs I share freely, if anyone asks.
The fact is there are some gamers that I really respect and like as people who play these games AND HAVE A GREAT TIME. They don't suck, even if their tastes send me into a diabetic coma. To each his or her own.
Straying over that line, (system vs. player of the system) is very easy to do -- especially in emails, chats and 'boards. I think THAT is the crux of the problem here.
Sammael99
First Post
Tallarn said:
I admit to being biased against superhero comics as well. I'm not slamming the whole genre, because I know there is some decent stuff in there, but a lot of what I had the chance to read really didn't cut it. Guess I wasn't pointed towards the right stuff. But since I have read Frank Miller's Dark Knight, I know that intelligent and gripping superhero is possible.
As to comics in general, even though the US market is dominated by superhero stuff, there is very good non-superhero stuff if you know what you're looking for : Bone, Sandman, Cerebus, Thieves and Kings, Strangers in Paradise, Bacchus all spring to mind, not to mention more obscure stuff as published by Drawn and Quarterly or Fantagraphics.
I nearly cross posted that description in the ongoing "What the hell is Harn" thread, but it would just have been plain nasty... I'm pretty sure most Harn players wouldn't recognise themselves in that description, and indeed, most of what I have heard about the game has little to do with rape, naked women and human sacrifice...
I would add that liking a game because it mentions sex, rape and sacrifice is a pretty lame and, dare I say so, childish reason for liking a game....
I'm not even sure this qualifies as a flame, it's so mild...
It seems to me that, for all the debate going on about rules systems, we've forgotten something here.
Rulesets are only tools.
The campaign I play in is an ongoing work over a decade in the making, and it really doesn't matter what medium is used to describe it. D&D, RM, HarnMaster, Hero, GURPS - any one of these could be used to describe the goings on in the gameworld.
We just chose to use D&D as its the tool we're most comfortable using, and because, unlike a system like HarnMaster (created with a very specific setting in mind), it was easily adaptable. Could we have used HarnMaster? Yes. But it's an unfamiliar tool. For our purposes, it was more like a set of locking pliers than an adjustable wrench...
Rulesets are only tools.
The campaign I play in is an ongoing work over a decade in the making, and it really doesn't matter what medium is used to describe it. D&D, RM, HarnMaster, Hero, GURPS - any one of these could be used to describe the goings on in the gameworld.
We just chose to use D&D as its the tool we're most comfortable using, and because, unlike a system like HarnMaster (created with a very specific setting in mind), it was easily adaptable. Could we have used HarnMaster? Yes. But it's an unfamiliar tool. For our purposes, it was more like a set of locking pliers than an adjustable wrench...
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