Is D&D/D20 Childish and Immature?

[Bragg Battleaxe]

Well, my group doesn't sip martinis and quote Marcus Aurelius when we play, but none of us throw food at one another. I guess that leaves us somewhere in the middle on the maturity scale. I hope that helps.

 

[Erstwhile]

... You don't need a million charts or threat of instant death to make a game serious.

It sounds like a case of RPG snobbery favoring the less popular, more complex system over the loved-by-the-masses d20.

For the record, HarnMaster - and again, HarnWorld=game world, HarnMaster=separate game system - is not RoleMaster. The number of charts are minimal, at least in HarnMaster Core (which I play). And I also contend that HM is actually LESS complex in gameplay than is 3E, or at least that has been my experience. HM is details-heavy, but not rules-heavy.

Okay, now that said...

I don't like using terms like "childish" in these kind of debates. Suffice to say I, and most folk on the HarnForum, are more than happy to discuss our hobby with anyone - and, indeed, some of us use D&D to play in HarnWorld...

Certainly, there are things about the D&D system that I don't like (just as there are about HM), but I don't think there are inherently "immature" concepts. Certainly PCs in D&D are higher-powered than in HM, but that doesn't mean the game is immature. As has been stated previously on this thread, there is such a thing as mature high-fantasy. It's the players, not the system, that make a game mature.

Different systems do promote different styles of play, e.g. HM promotes a low-magic, combat-is-dangerous kind of game. But that's a question of style and taste, not maturity.

E.

 

[Tsyr]

Is DnD by default immature? Heck no.

Is Harn by default mature? Heck no.

Now, I do think that, at it's core, DnD has more POTENTIAL to produce immature gaming than Harn does, and likewise I think Harn has more potential to produce Mature gaming than DnD does. But not because of the games themselves.

DnD is an "entry game"... there aren't many of these. DnD, Vampire, maybe a couple others are the only games I would consider "entry" games, and of them all, DnD is the king. By that I mean, It's likely that your first game played is DnD (Mine wasn't; mine was Rifts, but that's beside the point). And I think most of us will agree that a lot of new gamers have a tendancy to do things we consider "immature"... IE, powergaming, monte-haulism, etc. Not that this is bad, just a different way of playing. But it _IS_ often considered "immature". And a lot of people (I'd dare to say most) do grow out of this phase.

Harn, in contrast, is NOT an entry game. About as far from it as you can get, as a matter of fact. I'm sure a few people have gotten their start on it, but I'd bet not even a tiny fraction the size of those who have gotten started on Vampire even. So the people who have played Harn are, almost by definition, people who have "matured" beyond the "immature" types of gaming.

Hence, on the whole, Harn is more likely to have a higher percentage of "mature" games and gamers. This is what I mean by "potential". But it has nothing to do with the games themselves.

 

[The_Gneech]

Isn't it silly and immature the way people jump all around in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon! I much prefer realistic movies, like The Name of the Rose.

Or something like that.

-The Gneech

 

[Col_Pladoh]

Well, my group doesn't sip martinis and quote Marcus Aurelius when we play, but none of us throw food at one another. I guess that leaves us somewhere in the middle on the maturity scale. I hope that helps.

Hey! That's not fair, nor are sipping martinis and throwing food at one another necessarily mutually exclusive. You should see us playing here at my place some nights...

Gary

 

[Col_Pladoh]

Isn't it silly and immature the way people jump all around in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon! I much prefer realistic movies, like The Name of the Rose.

Or something like that.

-The Gneech

Aptly put!

In all, though, when people are playing fantasy games, what is pretended is still just that, and in all a game. Now games can be played seriously as chess and bridge are in many cases, but the main purpose of game play is entertainment. Most people RPG to have fun, no? Given that, what the hell does it matter if the game is played in a childish manner of the players involved give themselves airs, think of their let's pretend as mature and sophisticated. It's still just a game.

Gary

 

[S'mon]

I agree with Gary - why is it so often assumed that being 'silly' and 'immature' is always a BAD thing? As I said earlier, heroic fantasy seems to me to be inherently an 'immature' art form; Conan stories appeal primarily to adolescent males, or the adolesecent male within all (most) of us - that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them. The childish desire to get loot, beat up your enemies, impose your will on the world - there's as much a place for this in games, it's just as valid a form of play, as is deep-immersion roleplay to explore the inner psyche, or careful construction and exploration of a realistic and believable alien society. RPGs can be vehicles for these and many other ends - one reason they're so great!

 

[Desdichado]

I can't tell where this thread is going anymore. Are we saying that no, D&D isn't an immature game, or are we now saying that D&D is immature and that's just fine?

 

[S'mon]

I can't tell where this thread is going anymore. Are we saying that no, D&D isn't an immature game, or are we now saying that D&D is immature and that's just fine?

Well, D&D can be used for 'mature' purposes (maybe your GM wants to explore Jungian archetypes through a Joseph Campbell-style hero myth) but that doesn't seem the primary thrust of the core books as written, so I'd go for the latter: D&D is 'immature', and IMO that is fine, although if you're 35 and only _ever_ play hack & slash, & only ever read Driz'zt books, I'd say you were missing out on a lot of good stuff.

 

[AussieMoose]

Greetings!

Has the game that so many of us love, and have been playing for upwards of 20 years or more, somehow devolved into jello for Barney? A gibbering game for children?
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End Quote.

I have just read this first post and had to reply!

YES - there are childish aspects to it - innocence, right vs wrong, purity, simplicity etc etc. So What?

In regard to devolving into a game for children - well 19 years ago when I started playing, I WAS a child.

I think to many people focus on making something that is, ultimately an enjoyable escape from reality, more realistic.

This is a way to exist in a world that can never be and do things we darent do.

I don't know about anyone else, but many is the game that has often (except during tense moments) caused everyone in our game to laugh our heads off. Some trivial, stupid action or deed sets us off.

This is called HUMOUR - and it's one of the best damned forms of healing known.

So I think YES there is something childish about D&D that many other RPG's don't have, but maybe the world needs more children, even if we are adults.

Thats my 5 cents again.