Is D&D/D20 Childish and Immature?

[KnowTheToe]

Well, D&D can be used for 'mature' purposes (maybe your GM wants to explore Jungian archetypes through a Joseph Campbell-style hero myth) but that doesn't seem the primary thrust of the core books as written, so I'd go for the latter: D&D is 'immature', and IMO that is fine, although if you're 35 and only _ever_ play hack & slash, & only ever read Driz'zt books, I'd say you were missing out on a lot of good stuff.

No matter what you choose, you are missing out on a lot of good stuff. People who read a lot may be missing out on great movies, TV, sports and social activities.

They may only read historical non fiction, if so they miss out on good books from every other style book. Entertainment is entertainment. No one form is more enlightening, more important, or more mature than any other. Entertainment all has the same value, it is only our self interests and perceptions that make one more appealing than another.

Anyway, I can't see how Rping can be immature, but watching American Idol is not. American Idol was the number one show in America for several months. I say Ach-Toohy.

 

[S'mon]

Anyway, I can't see how Rping can be immature, but watching American Idol is not. American Idol was the number one show in America for several months. I say Ach-Toohy.

American Idol - that's based on the UK show 'Pop Idol', as I recall. I don't particularly see what's 'immature' about watching a bunch of people compete to become a pop star, or whatever. Presumably the show appealed to a wide demographic, hence its popularity. Please don't confuse 'immature' with 'stupid'.

 

[KnowTheToe]

Please don't confuse 'immature' with 'stupid'.

My bad, your right

Wait a minute. What is the difference between stupid and immature?

If people don't understand somthing they will often say it is stupid and the people who do it are immature. It is the whole reason I am a closet gamer. People judge it as an immature hobby for social misfits without even considering the players behavior.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Sammael99: Hey Sammael99! I agree with you. It seems that any level of "maturity" is dependent upon the players, as opposed to the game system. I must say though, that, seeing this is a game--what is so important about "maturity" anyways? As others have mentioned, to what level or degree is one applying the concept of "maturity"? To some level, all games are immature. However, any good psychologist can tell you that an important balancing factor in living life well, is MAINTAINING A SENSE OF CHILDLIKENESS within all of us, for it is in the very childishness that we plug into spontaneity, fun, and the care-free imagination that allows us to gain joy and meaning out of life--rather than always responsibilities and work. It's a question of balance, and childishness is a crucial component of anyone's personality.

I love the Silmarillion by the way! It's an excellent book, and displays, I think, the vast, epic scope of Tolkein's grand vision. Truly great stuff. I cried the first time that I read of Fingolfin riding out across the plain in fury and despair, there to stand forth and challenge the evil Morgoth--the evil God, and Lord of Darkness--to come down from his throne to a duel! The valiant fight that Fingolfin put forth--greater than any other creature of all Middle Earth, for Fingolfin proceeded to wound Morgoth no less than seven times with his fiery, gleaming sword! Still, despite Fingolfin's magnificent heroism, Morgoth crushes him in the terrible battle.

Very good stuff!

ACE: Immature concepts? Hmmm...I'm wondering though, aren't their options within the rules that would allow one to integrate different concepts that would change how some of the things work, that you have criticised?

Where have you been my friend? I haven't seen you in awhile. It's good to see you!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

Something that hasn't been mentioned before is the huge difference between childish and childlike .

Being childish means throwing food, having a temper tantrum when you don't get your way, wanting everything for yourself, not caring about anyone else etc etc etc. In an adult, this is normally regarded as a Bad Thing.

Being childlike means that you still have a sense of wonder about the world, that you approach things like it was the first time you'd encountered them. To give a D&D example, it means still being scared of the dragon at first level when you've played D&D for ten years and you know your DM isn't going to kill your characters on the first session. It means remembering to be impressed when the cleric performs a miracle. It means enjoying the witty (and otherwise) repartee and comments that a good game throughs up.

I don't think people that play in a childish manner are fun to play with. I think people that play in a childlike manner can be great gamers.

However, on top of all this, I have to confess my first thought when flicking through the Epic Level Handbook was "Wow! A spell that can do 305d6 damage!"

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

SHARK, mate, you read my mind.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Thanks Tellarn! I like your examples, too. Good stuff. Very, very true!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[S'mon]

My bad, your right

Wait a minute. What is the difference between stupid and immature?

If people don't understand somthing they will often say it is stupid and the people who do it are immature. It is the whole reason I am a closet gamer. People judge it as an immature hobby for social misfits without even considering the players behavior.

Many would claim that roleplayers are 'immature'. Few would claim that we're 'stupid'.

Immature - appealing only to those of a pre-adult sensibility.
Stupid - appealing only to those of limited intelligence.

D&D requires a high degree of intelligence to run. At the very least, it requires a lot of imagination to play well. It doesn't require a high degree of maturity to play - indeed it tends to appeal to the childlike sense of wonder in us, so very 'mature' people rarely enjoy it.

 

[Uller]

You know...when I was in junior high and high school, my gaming bodies and I would sit around and scoff at some the "immaturity" and unrealistic stuff in the D&D rules. We'd try to come up with house rules and what not to make it more "realistic".

For instance, we felt it was unrealistic to be a 9th+ level fighter. Such high level characters are near gods. The vast masses were 0th level humans, even ones who were in positions of leadership or served in military orders. A 10th level fighter could just walk into a typical castle and just cut everyone to pieces without breaking a sweat. "Silly!" we thought and we would set about to making things more "realistic".

But now that I'm older, I embrace the lack of realism. For me, the whole POINT of an RPG is to be a larger than life hero. The silliness in the above circumstance is easily addressed: scale up the power of the "average" NPC. 3e easily accomodates this. I look at 0th-level humans in 1e/2e as being equivalent of 1st-5th level NPC classes, depending on position, rank and relative importance to the adventure.

So sure...a 9th level fighter could cut everyone in the castle to ribbons if they are all Com1s. But what if the castle is populated with 10 Com1s, 5 Com2s, 3 Com3s, a Com4 and a Com5 as servants. 5 Exp1s, 2 Exp3s, 1 Exp4 and 1 Exp5 as skilled artisans. Maybe 3 Aris1s, 2 Aris3s and a Aris5 as councilors. 20 War1s, 10 War2s, 5 War3s, 3 War4s and 2 War5s as Men-at-arms and the whole thing is lead by a War5/Aris5 who is served (or the puppet of) a Sorc7? Now you've got an adventure! Childish? Yep! Fun? Absolutely. Now the 9th level fighter (and his 3 other 9th level friends) have a challenge. I don't care if it is not reasonable for the evil Baron to be the equivalent of a 9th level character. It would be stupid if he could be killed with a single crossbow bolt...

 

[S'mon]

Something that hasn't been mentioned before is the huge difference between childish and childlike .

Being childish means throwing food, having a temper tantrum when you don't get your way, wanting everything for yourself, not caring about anyone else etc etc etc. In an adult, this is normally regarded as a Bad Thing.

Hi Tallarn!
'Wanting everything for yourself' is a mindset that I think the D&D rules set promotes, so it's 'childish' in that sense. Cyberpunk does it with cyberware, D&D does it with magic items. However even though D&D _characters_ may often behave like ten-year-olds wanting that chocolate ice cream/+5 Vorpal Greatsword, I don't think it makes the _players_ behave childishly OOG. I do recall one guy who threw dice across the room when his character died - but he was 12, I was 13, and even then we thought he was childish for doing it!