is D&D evil? Thoughts please

[Desdichado]

kreynolds:
You don't know what you're talking about. Someone disagrees with you, and they must have a superiority complex. Sure thing, buddy.

EDIT: By the way, what the heck is "the cause"?

Comparing the Bible to Faiths and Pantheons is belittling and rude to Christians. Sure, it doesn't necessarily mean you have a superiority complex vs. Christians, but I've yet to meet someone who belittled Christians who didn't.

And the cause? Don't be purposefully obtuse. The originator of the thread asked about what to say to fundamentalist Christians who condemn D&D roleplaying. If you can't figure out what "the cause" in quotes is from context there, you're really not perceptive enough to contribute anything of value to the discussion.

So, let me get this straight. Because I don't put enough weight into the bible, you're telling me that I lack understanding simply because I don't believe in it? Wow.

Of course. In most people's lives equating the document that is the basis of their faith, religion and quite often most of their life to a game supplement shows a vast lack of understanding. Or at least a stubborn and rude disregard for their beliefs, which is about the same thing as lack of understanding.

 

[hong]

1. Is a hammer inherently evil? You can build things with a hammer. You can kill a person with a hammer.

And in a pinch, you can use the PHB as a hammer. It's just the right weight and thickness!

 

[Crispy Critter]

I've always found this subject fascinating.

It amazes me when I hear about people thinking that D&D is evil or promotes Satanic worship. It's even more surprising to hear that someone who used to play the game now denounces it as a sinful endeavor.

I've always found that people with preconceived notions based on their perception of the truth or reality - no matter how baseless that perception is - are pretty stubborn when it comes to changing their view of the world. I've learned that trying to change someone's belief in something is pretty darn impossible. In my experience, it's usually best to not discuss the issue with the person. You're friends, right? I'm sure there is a variety of topics you guys can talk about other than D&D.

 

[Heap Thaumaturgist]

Many people need something to believe in. Most people. Most everybody needs something to belong to.

The context and societal structure in which we are raised, and to which we wish to belong change who we are, how we think, and how we behave. It's a strange thing. Wanting to belong will move you into agreement with the hegemonic construct you are submitting yourself to. To belong is to believe.

People against "organized religion", "those Christians", are merely a part of another, slightly different, moral construct than the people they look down their nose at. Both sides are given a feeling a superiority ... on one hand is the idea that I am more favored of God, the other is the idea that I am better because I don't submit myself to a groundless belief system. And the fellows who flew into the trade towers firmly believed that they were better than everyone they killed because they followed the guide of their own belief structures.

It all stems back to the societal construct a person wishes to place themselves within ... if you were treated as different, if your ideas made you expatriate from your original familial belief system ... you are more likely to take a stance of "silly Christians". If you wanted to belong to this belief system, either as a child, or later in life when feelings of unbelonging became stronger you would come to believe that D&D is evil.

There are thousands of different contexts, thousands of slightly different systems of belief. Depending on the context of your development, your genetic predisposition, your needs, your wants in life you will find a context that suits and comforts you and become active within it.

So what if this guy thinks D&D is evil? So what if you don't? It's the activity of belonging, and you want to belong to different constructs. You have different needs. He won't change his ideas unless there is opened for him another context of belonging. A context is as simple as saying: "Sure, I'm born again, but I'm a born again that thinks D&D is okay by me." But if that stance alienates him from people he firmly wishes to be part of, he'll stick to his new moral system.

--HT

 

[Furn_Darkside]

thanks for listening.

Salutations,

We may be a bunch of goons, but we will always be interested and supportive when you publish something!

FD

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: response

the Bible is presented by some as a "religious text" and as "truth." There are people - many people - who genuinely believe that it is such.

So what? Does that actually have any bearing on whether or not it's true? None at all. I respect that they believe in it, but the mere fact that they do believe in it doesn't change a thing. It's just a book.

F&P is presented by the authors as a "work of fiction" and not as "truth" (except as it pertains to the fictional characters of the FR).

OK. Maybe I should have stated "Faiths & Pantheons as presented on a cigar-ash-covered bar napkin" that had just been "found". A book is a book. A story is a story. It doesn't matter what it's written in. It doesn't matter what it's about. It's only as real as you want it to be or as real as you make it. So, belief in a book doesn't make it anything more than just a book.

That's just my opinion though.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

governments have killed for multiple reasons...usually unconnected...christians kill and slaughter over and over again despite a "law" in their own religion that forbids this.

i see a HUGE gulf between the two.

Salutations,

I see two very powerful forces in the lives of people- organized religion and government. Power attracts people who want to abuse it. Common people, especially in the past, rely on people of power and are pretty much at the mercy of their whims. I don't see much of a difference.

Well, ok two differences:

1) both forces were usually the same source in the past.

2) The only place where you have a culture of religous (not just those "evil" christians) are areas that have been in conflict for so long I doubt the reasons why to hate each other even matters anymore.

3) Religous people have and continue to perform a lot of good in the world- often risking their own lives to go into poor & dangerous countries. Governments just throw money at the tyrants that make them poor and dangerous, heh.

FD

 

[Wicht]

Hey Sigil! Good post.

I think that Mr Card was exactly right in his descriptions of type of literature. The key to convincing a Christian that DnD is not inherently evil is to show them the differences and do so in a way where they find themselves agreeing with you without you doing a lot of hard arguing.

The key to changing someone's opinion is to encourage them to question and answer. You can use leading questions but you have to get them to answer things for themselves. And in any religious discussion (whether about DnD or any other topic of faith), if the person quotes other people as the source of their knowledge, then they will be harder to change. The goal in such a case is to get them to trust their own intellect and make their own decisions. This requires two things though. You have to trust them to make good choices (and a lot of people on all sides of the aisle, whether christian or not, are much more comfortable telling people what choices they should make than they are trusting themt o make the right choice ont heir own). You also have to have enough faith in your own position that you can present it as the best of two options without being domineering. This is a tricky thing to learn to do but if you can master it (and granted you have a good position to argue from) you will make more converts than not.

 

[kreynolds]

Or at least a stubborn and rude disregard for their beliefs, which is about the same thing as lack of understanding.

First of all, you keep repeating "understanding", so let's examine that.

If you believe that eating bacon is bad, fine. I don't think it's bad. I'm not gonna argue with you about it either. I'll eat bacon. You won't. Do I need to understand why you don't eat bacon to respect your belief? No. I just won't bother convincing you to eat it, nor will I persecute you for not eating it.

Now, and this is important, I expect the same thing from you.

 

[Tsyr]

The problem I think, kreynolds, is that essentialy what you are saying sounds alot like:

"I would treat a person who worshiped God and a person who worshiped Vecna the same way... that is to say, either with respect, or as a looney."

Whereas, most people would at least respect a christian, (Most people, I say), even if they didn't believe in God... But most people (Even hardcore gamers) would discount Mr. Highpriest of Vecna as a looney, and call the men in white coats to take him away.

Regardless of if that's what you meant to imply or not, that is sorta how it comes out.