is D&D evil? Thoughts please

[kreynolds]

And the cause? Don't be purposefully obtuse.

And don't be so f'ing rude. I wasn't being obtuse. I simply didn't understand what "the cause" was. I wasn't aware of any great movement of the D&D community. This is all news to me.

 

[kreynolds]

The problem I think, kreynolds, is that essentialy what you are saying sounds alot like:

"I would treat a person who worshiped God and a person who worshiped Vecna the same way... that is to say, either with respect, or as a looney."

Ah. You're probably right. Here's how it should sound: "I would treat a person who worshiped God and a person who worshiped Vecna the same way...that is to say that I would treat them with respect. I would not give either one any more credit than the other."

Regardless of if that's what you meant to imply or not, that is sorta how it comes out.

True. But it's still really entertaining to watch some of these people get all riled up when there's a misunderstanding. It would be nice if I had communicated what I meant better in the first place, but alas, I did not. Oh well.

 

[Desdichado]

First of all, you keep repeating "understanding", so let's examine that.

If you believe that eating bacon is bad, fine. I don't think it's bad. I'm not gonna argue with you about it either. I'll eat bacon. You won't. Do I need to understand why you don't eat bacon to respect your belief? No. I just won't bother convincing you to eat it, nor will I persecute you for not eating it.

Now, and this is important, I expect the same thing from you.

Fine. Then you don't have any business engaging anyone in a discussion about the merits of eating bacon, since you aren't interested in knowing anything at all about why someone doesn't eat bacon. Or, more pertinent to our own discussion here, you'll not respect their position of eating bacon, because you'll compare it to something that's obviously silly in an attempt to belittle their belief by hyperbole and then claim that understanding isn't important, and their opinion is meaningless to you.

Whatever floats your boat. As I said earlier, and this is really all I'm saying: that makes you about the worst "ambassador" of our hobby to fundamentalist Christians who may have a beef about D&D as I can think of.

And don't be so f'ing rude. I wasn't being obtuse. I simply didn't understand what "the cause" was. I wasn't aware of any great movement of the D&D community. This is all news to me.

There is no great movement. Most gamers don't care what these types of folks think of them and vice versa. However, the cause in relation to this thread is pretty apparent, I think. As to my being rude, I could easily say that one bad turn deserves another ("eye for an eye?") but that'd be a bit of a cop-out. I tend to respond with knee-jerk reactions to posts of this nature, and I'm sure my tone has been somewhat more rude than it would otherwise be. Sorry. My bad.

 

[Wolfen Priest]

Many people need something to believe in. Most people. Most everybody needs something to belong to.

Wanting to belong will move you into agreement with the hegemonic construct you are submitting yourself to. To belong is to believe.

I would argue that in many ways, for many people, 'believing' in Christianity will likely put a person at odds with most of the world.

But other than that, I generally agree with you.

 

[fett527]

Back to the point

I think all you kreynolds bashers should think about starting another thread.

Back to a response to the original post. I have an interesting perspective on the subject as my father is a Southern Baptist Minister. Let me tell you now that I had more lenient parents than some non-Christian friends in High School. Not all Southern Baptists are "my way is the only way" types. My parents encouraged growth an individuality and I played D&D all through High School and still do of course. They trusted me to make my own decisions and when I turned 18 (still in high school) I did not have a curfew they only required I let them know where I was as I still lived under their roof.

You may want to ask your friend what in this world could not be in some way or fashion considered to be evil or of Satan by any particular person or teaching if they so deemed it (or interpreted it from the Bible)? I mean something as simple as say an apple couldn't be construed as evil could it?

 

[King_Stannis]

Re: Back to the point

I think all you kreynolds bashers should think about starting another thread...

i don't know if i'd call it bashing. sounds like a lively debate, which i can always appreciate. kreynolds took some strong positions that some people want him to elaborate on. no big deal.

 

[Artoomis]

My take on this:

D&D is not, of course, inherently evil.

However, there are problems with the game, mostly concerned with when folks take on the role of "evil" in the game, and/or glorify evil, devils, demons and such.

An example?

Necromancer Games. Now, I like Necormancer Games. I like that they will produce Judges Guild items. I get the impression they are pretty nice folks over there.

I don't like their name. The very title is suggestive of evil, and they've adopted Orcus as as a sort of "mascot." To me, this is the wrong focus.

D&D should be about emphasizing good over evil, and how good wins out in the end. When presented that way, it can be a positive influence.

If I had to give the game itself an alignment, I'd call it neutral. It's goodness/evilness, like most things in life, depends upon how it is used.

Personally, I never play evil characters, I don't play in evil parties, or with players who like to play evil characters. Aside from the fact that I think that routinely taking on the role of evil in a game is, at best, unwise, such games tend to devolve into characters attacking each other and such.

I think that D&D can be compatible with "bible-beater" types. There is nothing in the bible that says it is wrong to fantasize about being a holy warrior who defeats evil. In fact, such things might even encourage better behavior in general in society.

I like D&D. I consider it to be compatible with christianity (and other religions) For those who are the quite strict in their beliefs, the game can be structured to accomodate that by removing all the "pagan" gods.

Generally, that's the biggest stumbling block for strict christians - the presence of multiple gods. That's a tough one - I've been mulling over how to introduce the concept of "God" into D&D without losing the flavor of the game. I think that whoever cracks the code on how to do that will be responsible for greatly expanding the social acceptance of D&D.

 

[kreynolds]

Fine. Then you don't have any business engaging anyone in a discussion about the merits of eating bacon, since you aren't interested in knowing anything at all about why someone doesn't eat bacon. Or, more pertinent to our own discussion here, you'll not respect their position of eating bacon, because you'll compare it to something that's obviously silly in an attempt to belittle their belief by hyperbole and then claim that understanding isn't important, and their opinion is meaningless to you.

Do you actually have a point here or do you just love the sound of your own voice?

As I said earlier, and this is really all I'm saying: that makes you about the worst "ambassador" of our hobby to fundamentalist Christians who may have a beef about D&D as I can think of.

I never said I should be. What made you think I did?

There is no great movement. Most gamers don't care what these types of folks think of them and vice versa. However, the cause in relation to this thread is pretty apparent, I think.

I see. No movement. No great "cause". The "cause" is this tiny little thread. My bad. You made it sound bigger than that.

But believe it or not, I am in fact interested in what other folks think of the game. However, what I am not interested in is the types of response that the Sigil outlined about his conversation with his friend 3 years ago. Unfortunately, once I receive that type of response, I'm finished with the discussion, whereas the Sigil actually continues the discussion. What can I say? I just don't have much patience.

But, a book as still just a book. How important that book is too you is your business and I won't belittle that. That's my belief. All I said is that when it comes to D&D, I don't care what book you quote, because I'm not interested in a quote from a book. I'm interested in your opinion, not the opinion of a book.

What I did belittle are people that can't do any better than respond with quotes from a book or cite other people's beliefs because they are incapable of having their own, being victims of what I like to call "blind faith". But, like the Sigil said, sometimes you gotta work their opinion out of them.

 

[CrusaderX]

This whole "D&D vs. Religion" thing never made much sense to me. I'm a very devout Catholic (or at least try to be), and D&D has never conflicted with my faith. In fact, I know many more Chrstians than non-Christians who play the game.

And it's rather ironic that none of us would probably be playing D&D as we know it today in the first place, if it wasn't for a devout Catholic named JRR Tolkien

BTW, has anyone posted links to Tracy Hickman's articles on ethics and RPGs? Those are definite must-reads in regards to this topic.

 

[Mallus]

its a dumb fray to enter, but what the hell...

Heap Thamauturgist basically nailed it.

<highhorse>
To paraphrase a famous politcal quote "All politics are identity politics". We choose from and synthasize from a series of external moral/ethical systems in order to define a sense a self. Some people just take on those of their parents and communities, other people adopt diametrically opposite worldviews. Some go much farther afield...

Its hard to reason someone out of the way they make sense out of the world. The act of creating and maintaing an identity is a big task; suprarational {in that it subsumes reason, reason is a means, not and end}.

About the best you can hope for {aside from some friendly debates} is to provide a space where people who live under very different ethical systems can live and interact together. With a few commonly held beliefs, of course.

So back to D&D. Is it evil? Not in my opinion. Is finding D&D evil {along with rock and roll, Hinduism, homosexuality, and even Disney products} a part of some folks ethical systems? Yup. Are they stupid for thinking so? Sure thing, in my opinion. Am I misguided, fooled, closed off from the truth? From their point of view, affirmative again.

So try to find another community of people which holds gaming in a more favorable light. There are many Christians who have no problem with D&D. Or Disney's Poccahontas {aside from fact it isn't a good film}.

Respect the right of other people to assemble the world the way they choose to. Fight them only when it counts, when the act or advocate the restriction of your right to live and think the way you choose.
</highhorse>

<rant>
oh, on the subject of Orson Scott Card. Great writer. Speaker for the Dead is an amazingly thoughtful and religious book, but his thoughts about witing and evil are useless. I suppose it works for him, but not for me. Just an example: Why is pornography inherently evil? What's counts as porn? Hustler? Ulysses? The works of John Donne {he uses some highly erotic language in his religious poems....}. Any writing that provokes a sexual response? Why not any writing that provokes a violent response? Like Tom Paine's "Common Sense" {literally, in that case}. Like most neat propositions, it just ain't much help...
</rant>