is D&D evil? Thoughts please

[Wicht]

You misunderstand me. My point is that it doesn't matter if he's a Born Again or not. I don't care one way or the other. My other point is that I will give a man who believes in the bible nor more precedence than I would a man who believes in Faiths & Pantheons when it comes to the moral issues of playing D&D.

You misunderstand me. My point is that if you want to convince someone in an argument you must understand where they are coming from. The original poster wanted advice on how to convince a devout christian that DnD was not evil. He specifically said he did not want flames directed at people of faith. That is where I am coming from.

I have to ask how many of those here displaying an open disregard for the opinion of christians have ever managed to convert any christians to the game?

I am both an active christian and an active gamer. I have yet to not convince any christians who approached the subject with me that the practice of role-playing was not inherently evil. This is because in large part I do not belittle their opinions but approach those opinions with respect and then show them the flaws in their thinking.

 

[kreynolds]

You misunderstand me.

No I don't. I was just disagreeing with you.

My point is that if you want to convince someone in an argument you must understand where they are coming from.

Generally, that's true, but when all someone can do is quote scripture as their argument, I'd have more use for them as a handy wipe.

The original poster wanted advice on how to convince a devout christian that DnD was not evil.

I realize that. Given the description of his friend's behavior, I don't he should bother.

He specifically said he did not want flames directed at people of faith.

Who's flaming people of faith?

I have to ask how many of those here displaying an open disregard for the opinion of christians

If it makes you feel better, I pretty much have an open disregard for all faiths. None of them suit me quite right, so I'll stick with my own. Not that I don't respect someone else's beliefs, when in fact, I do respect them. However, when talking about whether or not D&D is a healthy or unhealthy practice, I don't give a damn what your God/Gods thinks. I wanna know what you think.

I am both an active christian and an active gamer.

I see. So you're the wolf in sheeps clothing.

I have yet to not convince any christians who approached the subject with me that the practice of role-playing was not inherently evil.

I've never even bothered.

 

[phillcalle]

1) A christian must be concerned about reputation. A christian with a good reputation in a community is one more likely to influence the behavior of others. Therefore if a thing has the appearance of evil and can harm the reputation then the Christian should abstain from the behavior that might mistakenly cast doubt upon their reputation. 2) A christian should not engage in action which offends a brother. This does not preclude trying to change a brothers mind but generally speaking christians are to avoid creating problems between members of the church.

--Wicht

If you're friend brings up these points, counter with WWJD (what would Jesus do?), since by these standards, Christ wasn't a very good Christian. He was a rebel who shook up the community. One "mistake" he made was to associate with tax collectors and other disreputable folks. He hurt his reputation by doing that. Another "mistake" he made was busting up a temple that was more dedicated to money than to God. He angered his fellow Jews by doing that.

In all seriousness though, what would Jesus do about D&D (or another rpg)? I think the question boils down to "Is imagination bad?" Is it wrong to posit a world in which God, Jesus, and natural laws are different than in reality, or don't even exist? Some Christians, the ones who fear Harry Potter and The Chronicles of Narnia, will tell that of course, doing that is wrong, following the same reasoning that is used to determine that lustful thoughts are wrong--thought and deed are basically the same thing, at least where sin is involved. To them, to imagine that Jesus could be a lion or that using magic is ok is to sin against God. It's hard to argue against this point of view. Still, does every fundamentalist believe this? If not, then an honest examination of D&D/rpgs would show that they are merely tools, ones that could be used for just about any act of imagination.

 

[Wolfen Priest]

[/color]
Superiority complexes based on your supposedly rational belief system don't really help "the cause."

I agree 100% with you Joshua. If a Christian condemns RPG's as contributing to corruption of the soul or what-have-you, and in response, a gamer immediately begins shouting about the inherant evil of religious institutions, etc., then that gamer is merely proving the point of the Christian (at least in the Christian's mind).

If gamers expect Christians to tolerate them, then we might as well (at least) respect their opinions. It's the only rational response.

Being a Catholic, I've never dealt with condemnation for playing D&D. But then again, the Catholic Church may have been too busy fighting off similar attacks from people like Jack Chick, and others who claim the pope is the anti-christ.

 

[kreynolds]

That's exactly why you're the wrong person to be asking advice.

Perhaps, but I never said I was.

Superiority complexes based on your supposedly rational belief system don't really help "the cause."

You don't know what you're talking about. Someone disagrees with you, and they must have a superiority complex. Sure thing, buddy.

EDIT: By the way, what the heck is "the cause"?

Making comparisons between the Bible and Faiths and Pantheons just highlight your lack of understanding or tolerance

So, let me get this straight. Because I don't put enough weight into the bible, you're telling me that I lack understanding simply because I don't believe in it? Wow.

And I do have tolerance. If you don't eat pizza because it goes against your faith, I won't argue with you. I'll respect your faith and leave it at that. Furthermore, it's just not worth arguing over in the first place. Like this whole topic, it isn't worth arguing over either, and that's all I was saying. I wouldn't bother trying to convince the guy.

If "the cause" is promoting D&D to members of the faith, then that's perfectly fine. I'm not biased against faith when it involves D&D at all. When people ask me why I play D&D, I tell them I play because it's fun, it exercises the imagination, keeps my creativity levels up, and it's an escape from life, just like a video game, a puzzel, a concert, etc, etc. My job isn't to convince you to play. My job isn't to convince you that it isn't evil.

What I will do, however, is invite you over to play or just to watch and see what it's like for yourself. If you don't want to, fine. It's not my job to change your mind. WotC gets paid to do that. Not me.

Not saying you're a liberal

Good, because I'm not.

 

[Wicht]

Phillcalle If I answered your first comment I would be dangerously close to crossing the line of discussing religion in a non-DnD way (which for the sake of the moderators I try not to do here). There are however good arguments against your first point concerning "What would Jesus Do." And portraying Jesus as a rebel is not the best way to win the argument against someone who knows their bible.

To answer your other question, No, not all fundementalist tend to think along the lines of "imagination=bad." Those that do that tend to be more pentecostal in nature and are in all honesty harder to reason with. Still it can be done if you do it respectfully.

If you are interested in a detailed answer to your first point e-mail me.

 

[KnowTheToe]

A friend of mine and I have pondered why people think things are evil and we have come to the only solution that makes sense. Some people don't have a clear understanding of the division of reality and fantasy. For instance, I have a small gargoyle book end in my house and my older sister thinks it is evil. I take it down if she is coming over.

I believe that when people don't understand that a statue can not be anything more than just a shaped stone, or

She is a member at a chrismatic church and her fellow church members (I am not speaking about any other church) are brainwashed into believing all kinds of things are evil. The teletubby with the bag was evil because the symbolism supposedly taught homosexuality. Often chrismatic churches teach fear and the power of the devil. They focus on the negatives and teach very slanted views of things. These same groups protest movies, books and shows they have never seen, but have been told are bad.

Teach fear and you will reap anger and hate. Teach love and understanding (not always agreement and acceptance, but always understanding and compassion) and you will reap more enlightened individuals and a world better to live in.

 

[johnnygolastly]

anything which takes up this much of my life must be evil

 

[Greatwyrm]

As a Christian and a gamer, I've had this come up on more than one occasion. Most of the time, people are satisfied when I just laugh off the question of it being satanic. But, there are times when people will just have to agree to disagree.

Given that logic and faith don't always play well together, I offer the following arguments.

1. Is a hammer inherently evil? You can build things with a hammer. You can kill a person with a hammer. Same hammer. It depends more on the person with the hammer than the hammer itself.

2. If entertainment venues such as music, games, and movies have such an unresistable effect on people then why aren't all teen-age boys kung-fu masters and killing machines if they play Street Fighter? Why aren't all the people who enjoy country music alcoholics, adulterers, and unemployed? This is because the vast majority of people are capable of separating the fictional scenarios in their entertainment from reality.

I have an open invitation to anyone who can find instructions on how to worship satan in any of my game books. If they can find such instructions, they can burn my entire collection. I have a very extensive collection. I don't forsee a large fire in my library's future.

Ultimately, and this is where it gets a little preachy, you know what is in your heart, as does the deity or deities of your choice. When whatever method of judgement you believe in arrives, that's all that matters.

 

[The Sigil]

Re: response

Thanks for the responses! Yes it does irritate me that he responds with quotes instead of telling me what HE thinks. It's sad that he seems to not be able to think for himself anymore as he's a highly intelligent (which is different from wisdom...) person.

This reminds me of a conversation I had (not about D&D, but the lesson is the same) with a really good friend about three years back...

ME: "What do you believe about life after death?"

FRIEND: "Well, my Mom says <X> and my pastor says <Y>."

ME: "You didn't answer my question. I didn't ask you what your Mom believes. I didn't ask you what your pastor believes. I asked you what YOU believe. What do you believe?"

FRIEND: "You know, I'm really not sure..."

Once you get them to stop "quoting" and start "thinking" you can engage in a more meaningful discussion - because you're forcing them to actually take time to examine your beliefs and, more importantly, their own beliefs.

If your friend truly believes in the interpretation of the Bible given to him by his religious leaders (note the difference between "the interpretation" and "the Bible itself" - since AFAIK, the Bible never once mentions Dungeons & Dragons or Role-playing Games), then his argument of "I don't want to play" is valid. If you seriously believe it is wrong for you to play D&D, that is your perogative and I really can't tell you to believe otherwise. But you have to convince me that YOU believe it and not that you believe that someone else believes it.

Anyway. I wish people who believe that gaming is evil would just say what they believe (if they could still tell the difference) and stop quoting scripture like it's the truth (oops!). It makes me wonder what they do/how they respond with every other situation in life.

Again, if they honestly believe the scriptures to be the truth, then it IS what they believe. They just have to convince me that they really do believe scripture before they can quote it.

On to another point - the Read/Believe Bible vs. Read/Believe F&P, there is a big difference... the Bible is presented by some as a "religious text" and as "truth." There are people - many people - who genuinely believe that it is such. F&P is presented by the authors as a "work of fiction" and not as "truth" (except as it pertains to the fictional characters of the FR). To say that believing in F&P is the same as believing in the Bible ridicules the beliefs of those who DO believe in the Bible, because the authors of F&P have never tried to "sell" their stuff as genuine religious article.

One of my favorite Science Fiction authors, Orson Scott Card (whose son Geoffrey was one of my childhood friends until I moved away at age 8), had some excellent insight into the problems of the religious right... he is a religious man, himself, BTW, so keep in mind that he DOES feel that there is such a thing as "good" and "evil" in the religious sense.

Mr. Card posits that there are three types of evil in writing:
1.) That which depicts evil.
2.) That which advocates evil.
3.) That which IS inherently evil.

He gives as examples:
1.) The Bible, Huck Finn - depicts a lot of slaughter, sin, rape, incest, and so forth. In fact, any writing other than man vs. nature usually pretty much depends on depicting evil. Neither reading nor writing such a thing is evil... otherwise we classify "God" and "prophets" as evil for reading & writing such things.

2.) KKK hate crime manuals, "how to take drugs and not get caught" - These are seen by Mr. Card as evil, and obviously, such literature not only depicts the evil, but actively encourages participation. The act of reading itself is not evil, but writing such thing certainly is (at least according to Mr. Card).

3.) Pornography - Mr. Card believes pornography is in and of itself evil, as the mere act of deliberately viewing/reading it is evil. The act of publication is also evil.

Mr. Card says that the problem most religious right groups has, in his opinion, is an inability to differentiate among the 3 types. They see evil DEPICTED (Type 1) and immediately feel that the literature itself IS EVIL (Type 3).

I happen to agree with Mr. Card's classification system, and feel that Type 1 literature is no problem. Type 2 and Type 3 are problematic; though I don't think reading Type 2 is a problem, writing it certainly is. I try to have nothing to do with Type 3.

However, I respect Free Speech enough not to try to censor them... though I also wish that people would respect MY right and not shove them down my throat (a sticking point with me is that the Free Speech activists tell me, "we can say what we want and you no right not to have to listen to us" - I think it should be "you can say what you want but I have a right not to be forced to listen to you").

I'm rambling, so back to the point... where does D&D fall in this spectrum? I would suggest it is a Type 1 product. It depicts evil, but certainly does not advocate it. Perhaps bringing these points to the attention of your friend will help.

After all, I know of a book that flat-out tells us all sort of ways to sin, tells us about Satan, gives examples of murder, incest, rape, abuse of political power, stealing, conspiring, and even contains references to people who hate Jesus. This makes it obviously evil - the book should be banned.

Oh, yeah, it's called, "The Bible," by the way...

Think for yourselves a bit. It is very possible to be religious and a D&D player just as one can be religious and read the Bible...

True conversion is not made on the ability to quote references of scripture. True conversion is not made because you believe that your pastor believes something. True conversion is when YOU believe the Bible. When YOU can say, "I believe in the Bible (or other religious text - I only use the Bible because it is relevant to the original example of Born-Again Christian) not because I am blind, but because I can see" and mean it.

Religious devotion is fine, and abstaining from things due to your religious convictions is fine... just make sure you DO have conviction in your convictions.

--The Sigil