Is D&D (WotC) flaming out?

[Stormonu]

Both of these things are true. The Dragonlance adventures were also a very good example of an Adventure Path.

Couldn't XP you, but that's another great example.

There was also:

I3-I5, the Desert of Desolation series,
I6 & I10, Ravenloft and Ravenloft 2: House on Griffon Hill,
L1-L3 - the Lenore Isle adventures,
U1-U3 - The Saltmarsh series,
T1-T4 - Village of Homlett/Temple of Elemental Evil superadventure
UK2 - UK3 - Sentinel/Gauntlet
DDA1-DDA4 - The Thyatis series
H1-H4 - Bloodstone series

During 2E days, there were also quite a few, usually for campaign worlds:

DSQ series (Road to Urik, Arcane Shadows, Asticlian Gambit)

Ravenloft: Death Ascendant, Death Triumphant, Death Unchained, (Death Undaunted)

FRE1-FRE3 - Time of troubles series

Ruins of Undermountain (I/II) + Maddgoth's Castle, Stardock & the Lost Level

Sword of the Dales, Secret of Spiderhaunt, Return of Randal Morn

Marco Volo series (Departure, Journey, Arrival)

Castle Spulzeer / Forgotten Terror crossover

The most unusual was probably Ravenloft's Feast of Goblyns, Ship of Horror, Web of Illusion, Night of the Walking Dead, Roots of Evil and From the Shadows, which shared a metaplot but couldn't easily be run as a "series"

...And I think I've listed more than enough. I'd also add that many of the boxed adventure sets were basically APs, sold en masse rather than parcelled out over several modules/books.

 

[rounser]

One, you're assumng that love=mastery, and that's simply not true- for instance, many of the people I know who despise 3e certainly have a better grasp of it's mechanics than the people who defend it. The spellcaster debates in various places are a clear example of that. Likewise, a lot of the people sticking with 3e use house rules or limited class lists to vercome shortcomings that they themselves often dont' deny.

The spellcaster debates hinge on whether you saw wizards as "a problem that needed fixing." A lot of the changes 4E wrought were answers to problems that not everyone saw as such, or just generated bigger problems in place of the old. The fact that you think defenders of vancian magic are less knowledgable than the attackers is probably just a reflection of you agreeing with their arguments, as I can point you to one recently where my opponent couldn't even quote well known loopholes in the spell system and was talking in handwaves and general impressions rather than specifics. So no, I think you're indulging in wishful thinking here. Rejectors of 4E cannot be stereotyped as uninformed rejectors - they know what they like in their game. Unthinking acceptance of whatever rules might lead to just going with whatever the newest edition serves up, because it's new and shiny.

 

[Stormonu]

Search for everything 4th edition before Essentials: tons of torrents. Many of the earlier books like the Players' Handbook II and Divine Power were uploaded almost the same day as their release. Search for Essentials: hardly anything. Even pirates cannot be bothered to scan and upload it.

I would say that enthusiasm for 4th Edition is starting to die down.

Sadly, you are terribly wrong on this. I am seeing plenty of scans/PDFs for all the Essentials products.

Also, if I recall correctly, the PHB2 and Divine Power were uploaded so quickly because they came from WotC's own legal scans-turned-pirate, which isn't being done for these news items. It seems to be taking about a month for the pirates to turn around & popularize a good scan nowadays because they don't have WotC shortcuts. It isn't stopping them, just slowing them a bit.

 

[Beginning of the End]

It is true that that Path wasn't as tightly connected as we're now used to seeing. However, I'm sure that the term "Adventure Path" was first used at that time, and to describe those adventures. (Unfortunately, my Google-fu isn't strong enough to find a suitable reference from ten years ago, so I can't cite.)

This Google Groups search confirms your memory, which conforms to mine. Everyone referred to these modules as the Adventure Path.

Here you can see a regurgitated press release from around that time: "This month begins the “Adventure Path” series of eight adventures for Third Edition that WotC delivers to take beginning Third Edition characters from 1st level through 20th. The first in the series is the 32-page The Sunless Citadel by Bruce R. Cordell..."

I have very vivid, but apparently false, memories of "Adventure Path" being printed on the covers. In fact, I can find no indication in back issues of Dragon that there was any sort of "Adventure Path" branding going on. So why did the entire community start calling them that?

I'm guessing it was something Ryan Dancey said.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

I have very vivid, but apparently false, memories of "Adventure Path" being printed on the covers. In fact, I can find no indication in back issues of Dragon that there was any sort of "Adventure Path" branding going on. So why did the entire community start calling them that?

I'm guessing it was something Ryan Dancey said.

Yeah, there was no branding on the covers of those modules calling them Adventure Paths or linking them in anyway.

As for Dungeon Magazine branding well HERE: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_JdaXTit5QaI/TI3Fk45JNDI/AAAAAAAAD1s/yIpL1wtCTCM/s400/Dungeon+Magazine+102.JPG

They pretty clearly were calling them adventure paths on the covers of the magazine.

This Google Groups search confirms your memory, which conforms to mine. Everyone referred to these modules as the Adventure Path.

Here you can see a regurgitated press release from around that time: "This month begins the “Adventure Path” series of eight adventures for Third Edition that WotC delivers to take beginning Third Edition characters from 1st level through 20th. The first in the series is the 32-page The Sunless Citadel by Bruce R. Cordell..."

Which is funny because I have at least 3 of those modules and had no idea that they were called adventure paths or that they were even remotely connected . Granted I havent read these mods in a loooooooong time. I'm still looking in the actual products themselves as to where they call themselves AP's.

NOTE: After digging a little deeper, I'm seeing that there is a a connection, the build up to the eventual confrontation with the dragon, Ashardalon. Does anyone know the names of all of the mods in this AP? So that I can track down the ones that I'm missing?

 

[Beginning of the End]

NOTE: After digging a little deeper, I'm seeing that there is a a connection, the build up to the eventual confrontation with the dragon, Ashardalon. Does anyone know the names of all of the mods in this AP? So that I can track down the ones that I'm missing?

There are quite a few other connections, too. The villain from The Sunless Citadel, for example, reappears later in the series. And a legendary forge master from The Forge of Fury also has a running presence throughout the series.

I believe the full list is:

The Sunless Citadel
The Forge of Fury
The Standing Stone
The Speaker in Dreams
Deep Horizon
Heart of Nightfang Spire
Lord of the Iron Fortress
Bastion of Broken Souls

Here's Todd Lockwood referring to it as an Adventure Path.

And here's a reference from D&D For Dummies doing the same, although that's post-Shackled City.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

There are quite a few other connections, too. The villain from The Sunless Citadel, for example, reappears later in the series. And a legendary forge master from The Forge of Fury also has a running presence throughout the series.

I believe the full list is:

The Sunless Citadel
The Forge of Fury
The Standing Stone
The Speaker in Dreams
Deep Horizon
Heart of Nightfang Spire
Lord of the Iron Fortress
Bastion of Broken Souls

Here's Todd Lockwood referring to it as an Adventure Path.

And here's a reference from D&D For Dummies doing the same, although that's post-Shackled City.

Excellent. Thanks for the list. Turns out (according to my Excel inventory, which may be out of date...) that I'm only missing Speaker in Dreams (although I could have sworn that Speaker is actually on my shelf. I'll have to check when I get home.) Deep Horizon and Heart of The Nightfang Spire.

I believe you guys when you say that WOTC called this an AP, I just dont recall it ever being pitched as such. And I was around at the time and bought at least 6 of the 8 mods. I discovered AP's when I started picking up Dungeon and came on the tail end of Shackled City.

I personally think that the mods are too loosely connected for what I consider to be AP's. I think A1-4, G1-3, D1-2 & 3 have tighter connections between them than the WOTC mods do. But that's neither here or there...

 

[Erik Mona]

My memory is that the 3.0 module series was referred to as the Adventure Path in-house at WotC, in marketing talk (interviews and the like), and possibly in Dragon magazine.

But I also seem to recall a directive from the brand team that employees were NOT to refer to the series as an "Adventure Path" in print, as the business folks must have thought that would somehow hurt sales.

It would be interesting to see someone scour the modules themselves (back cover copy, interior text, etc.) for any mention of the term Adventure Path. My memory is that it isn't there.

--Erik

 

[Sorrowdusk]

Interesting way of looking at it.

There is an easy way to measure popularity. How easy is it to find a free torrent on the internet? (And not a fake one from certain sites that appear in some google searches; one an average pirate can download for free.) Yes, piracy is morally questionable, but it is also a good measure of popularity. Search for Lady Gaga: tons of torrents. Search for The Polka Dogs: nada, zip. Search for everything 4th edition before Essentials: tons of torrents. Many of the earlier books like the Players' Handbook II and Divine Power were uploaded almost the same day as their release. Search for Essentials: hardly anything. Even pirates cannot be bothered to scan and upload it.I would say that enthusiasm for 4th Edition is starting to die down.

And then the opposing view...

Interesting thought to-but dont the sets have stuff in them that's scannable material? Although....

I'd think one contributing factor might be that most of the Essentials products are box sets as opposed to books. About the only one I'd want as a pdf version is the Rules Compendium.

@Tallifer
@Jhaelen
@Dice4Hire

Ultimately HALF the stuff may be boxed, but that does not mean that the boxes dont contain BOOKS.

DM Kit 256 page book + TWO 32 Page Adventures (Boxed)
Heroes of Forgotten Kingdoms 356 page Trade Paperback
Heroes of The Fallen lands 352 Page book Trade Paperback
Monster Vault 256 Page Book + 32 Page Adventure (Boxed)
Rules Compendium 320 page Trade Paperback
The Essential Dungeon & Dragons Starter (AKA Neo Red Box) (Boxed, duh)

DOES ANYONE THINK the books are getting longer than 3x? Seems most of those were shorter. PLUS LOOK AT THE PRICES-these books are all quoted (at least on Wizards page) at $19.95 (actual store prices might vary) but AS I RECALL when I got into 3.x every splat was like $30. Only the DMKIT for 4E is $39.95

 

[ProfessorCirno]

The spellcaster debates hinge on whether you saw wizards as "a problem that needed fixing." A lot of the changes 4E wrought were answers to problems that not everyone saw as such, or just generated bigger problems in place of the old. The fact that you think defenders of vancian magic are less knowledgable than the attackers is probably just a reflection of you agreeing with their arguments, as I can point you to one recently where my opponent couldn't even quote well known loopholes in the spell system and was talking in handwaves and general impressions rather than specifics. So no, I think you're indulging in wishful thinking here. Rejectors of 4E cannot be stereotyped as uninformed rejectors - they know what they like in their game. Unthinking acceptance of whatever rules might lead to just going with whatever the newest edition serves up, because it's new and shiny.

I've yet to meet someone who was truly comfortable with the rules and understood good tactics and how potent spellcasters were and how un-potent most non-spellcasters were and did not find it in some way problematic.

When a wizard can destroy any encounter - not just in combat, either - with "I cast a spell," it's a problem. When a fighter's only response is "I hit it with a stick" and even that fails more often then not, there's an issue.

Every time I think of houserules to make for 3e, "do something about spellcasters" is first on the list.

See, here's the thing - I can agree that 3e as horrible crippling flaws such as spellcaster issues and still like it. I don't think 3e is a bad game. I don't think Pathfinder is a bad game. I think they both suffer from some of the same poisonous and downright toxic design philosophies from my personal standpoint, but I still think they're fun games.