Is Dark Sun Coming To D&D?

WotC staff are dropping cryptic hints about campaign settings again! A couple of week ago it was Spelljammer; this time, it's Dark Sun. At Gary Con this year, during a D&D panel, WotC's Mike Mearls said of the psionic Mystic class -- "we don't need that class until we do Dark Sun."

He followed it up with with the usual note that he can't make product announcements and that all settings were part of the multiverse. You can hear the seminar on the Plot Points podcast. "Ben recorded a seminar wherein six game designers who worked on Dungeons and Dragons (Skip Williams, Jon Pickens, Zeb Cook, Ed Stark, Steve Winter, and Mike Mearls) talk about game design. During the talk, current lead designer Mike Mearls may very well have let slip what the next classic D&D game world he will be reviving next!"

Dark Sun was a campaign setting released back in the 1990s, and was a post-apocalyptic desert world called Athas, with psionics in abundance and dark survivalist themes. It made a reappearance in 2010 for D&D 4E.

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[Remathilis]

One thing to consider from the original design of Dark Sun, is a player character of a given level is expected to be more powerful than a player character or equal level from a standard setting.

This is explained through the harshness of the environment - only the tough survive.

God I hope that is something that doesn't return in DS. I swear every power-gaming munchkin tried to play a Dark Sun character in any sort of Planescape game I've ever played in or run. Any potential Dark Sun character options should be balanced against the core game rules and not overpower them with better ability scores, higher hp and broken classes and races.

:: Remathilis stares off into the distance, thinking about how many half-giant gladiators with science-level wild talents and 22 strengths he said "no" to when the topic of Planescape campaigns came up::

 

[Paul Farquhar]

God I hope that is something that doesn't return in DS. I swear every power-gaming munchkin tried to play a Dark Sun character in any sort of Planescape game I've ever played in or run. Any potential Dark Sun character options should be balanced against the core game rules and not overpower them with better ability scores, higher hp and broken classes and races.

:: Remathilis stares off into the distance, thinking about how many half-giant gladiators with science-level wild talents and 22 strengths he said "no" to when the topic of Planescape campaigns came up::

Dark Sun characters are only valid in the Dark Sun setting. Trying to use them in a different setting is cheating of the same order as "rolling" six 18s for ability scores.

 

[Remathilis]

Dark Sun characters are only valid in the Dark Sun setting. Trying to use them in a different setting is cheating of the same order as "rolling" six 18s for ability scores.

I know, and its the only D&D setting for which that is true. For the most part, the options and characters from Krynn, Oerth, Sigil, Eberron, Mystara, Ravenloft, Spelljammer and Toril all were roughly in line with each other (once you control for editions and 2nd edition's wonky design method) but Athas stood out as widely incompatible with the core game and the rest of the multiverse. So much so that it felt more like its own system masquerading under the Dungeons & Dragons name during 2e. The 3.5/Dragon version and the 4e version felt far more in-line with the expectations of D&D and I hope the potential 5e Dark Sun follows the trend, if only so that homebrewers can borrow from it without fear of widely-different power levels.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I'm also against making Dark Sun characters more powerful than other characters, even if they aren't being used in crossovers with other campaign settings. They might lead to an escalation of power levels in other settings especially homebrew settings (and Planescape and Spelljammer with their fill-in-the-blanks parts of the setting is a semi-homebrew).

The closest thing 3e did to the Athasian characters are more powerful is set the default starting level at 3rd level rather than 1st level. But that lead to trying to use Level Adjustments and ECL for certain races, which so far 5e isn't trying to do, 3e really failed with Level Adjustments in terms of how much various Level Adjustment +1 races varied in terms of power, as simply not having balanced racial ability score adjustments counted as +1. 5e mostly tries to make most races the equivalent of Level Adjustment +1 in terms of power.

 

[Werebat]

IF we ever get a Dark Sun 5e, I would sooner lay money on them taking a leaf from 4e and just reskinning Goliaths with an adjustment to their native terrain racial trait than I would on them making Half-Giants into a new race for the setting.

Then I would prefer to see them statted as monsters, and unavailable for PC play, rather than made into some sad powerful build abomination. Huge giants, Large half-giants, even if that means the half-giants are relegated to use by the DM as powerful mooks for the sorcerer-kings.

I poop on using reskinned Goliaths as pitiful substitutes for half-giants.

 

[Werebat]

I'm also against making Dark Sun characters more powerful than other characters, even if they aren't being used in crossovers with other campaign settings. They might lead to an escalation of power levels in other settings especially homebrew settings (and Planescape and Spelljammer with their fill-in-the-blanks parts of the setting is a semi-homebrew).

The closest thing 3e did to the Athasian characters are more powerful is set the default starting level at 3rd level rather than 1st level. But that lead to trying to use Level Adjustments and ECL for certain races, which so far 5e isn't trying to do, 3e really failed with Level Adjustments in terms of how much various Level Adjustment +1 races varied in terms of power, as simply not having balanced racial ability score adjustments counted as +1. 5e mostly tries to make most races the equivalent of Level Adjustment +1 in terms of power.

3e Dark Sun? I'd never heard of such an official product. How did it handle wild talents? Did everyone get one?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I know, and its the only D&D setting for which that is true. For the most part, the options and characters from Krynn, Oerth, Sigil, Eberron, Mystara, Ravenloft, Spelljammer and Toril all were roughly in line with each other (once you control for editions and 2nd edition's wonky design method) but Athas stood out as widely incompatible with the core game and the rest of the multiverse. So much so that it felt more like its own system masquerading under the Dungeons & Dragons name during 2e. The 3.5/Dragon version and the 4e version felt far more in-line with the expectations of D&D and I hope the potential 5e Dark Sun follows the trend, if only so that homebrewers can borrow from it without fear of widely-different power levels.

I like the "ring fencing" of the setting, as it allows for more flexibility to make things less generic. If you want to have compatibility a leaf could be taken from 3rd edition and consider Dark Sun characters Level+1 relative to standard characters.

 

[TheSword]

I too agree that Dark Sun is supposed to stand alone. The need for the characters being stronger, tougher, faster etc was that they were effectively working without the normal equipment a character would acrrue in a traditional fantasy setting - armour, advanced weapons etc so they needed to have the edge physiologically. The idea of Athas is that survival of the fittest has weeded out the weak and innocent from monsters, and humanoids alike leaving only tough mofos. Its like Mad Max 3+ with swords and less petrol.

I'm all in favour of totally shaking up the current expectations of race in the 5e setting. I've been waiting for a great Dark Sun campaign for a long long long long time. I love the setting but some of the early module writing was very iffy. If the new team can it do it justice like Curse of Strahd then this could be a tour de force! Assuming we arent getting something completely different! lol.

 

[QuietBrowser]

3e Dark Sun? I'd never heard of such an official product. How did it handle wild talents? Did everyone get one?

Basically, issue #319 of Dragon Magazine came out with an official Dark Sun Player's Handbook equivalent, a tie-in to the recently released (at the time) Expanded Psionics Handbook.


Elans, Maenads and Half-Giants had some minor tweaks, mostly consisting of ability score adjustments for the former and favored classes for all three, but were otherwise said "buy the XPH and use the stats there". I believe they had something similar to the Inborn Power racial trait - that is, an automatic psionic power determined by race and 3 psionic power points to fuel it with.


Aarakocra, Dwarves, Elves Half-Elves, Humans, Halflings, Muls and Pterrans all had the "Inborn Power" racial trait, which gave them three (3) psionic power points and a single psionic power they could use innately, with what that power was being determined by their race:

• Aarakocra: Elfsight
• Dwarf: Vigor
• Elf: Conceal Thoughts
• Half-Elf: Psionic Charm
• Human: 1 first level power of your choice from either the Psion or Wilder psionics list
• Halfling: Missive
• Mul: Offensive Presience
• Pterran: Burst

Thri-kreen had a single bonus psi-power point and a cluster of psi-like abilities: Chameleon 3/day, Know Direction 3/day, Psionic Displacement 1/day, Metaphysical Claw 1/day.

I like the "ring fencing" of the setting, as it allows for more flexibility to make things less generic. If you want to have compatibility a leaf could be taken from 3rd edition and consider Dark Sun characters Level+1 relative to standard characters.

I would kill to have Level Adjustment STAY DEAD. It was an atrocity that didn't work in 3rd edition, and even Pathfinder has dumped it. I want to say 5e is too smart to bring that rubbish back, but then, they brought back negative racial ability score modifiers, so I'm not so sure I trust WoTC to be that smart.

There are plenty of other, optional ways to make Athasian characters stronger WITHOUT bringing back mechanics like that. Athasians get a bonus feat at 1st level, they can re-roll one ability score at character creation, they have a higher default amount of ability score points for Point Buy, their statblocks can go higher than 20 without magical aid... and that's just the garbage ideas I came up with off the top of my head!

I want Dark Sun back. But I would sooner put the setting to the torch than bring it back as the overt "this is the munchkin's branch of D&D" setting.

I like the stories I can tell on Athas. But I also like the stories I can tell with Athasian crossovers. Don't disappoint me, WoTC.

 

[Werebat]

LOL so some people have their panties in a bunch over Large half-Giants but they are just fine with Aarakocra PCs who can fly all the time?

LOLOL! Masterstroke!