Is darkness broken

[eamon]

Interestingly, I don't see any Resist Necrotic in the listings for Umbral Sprite. It would seem that if there were multiple swarms with overlapping swarms in the range of Darkwave, they'd be killing each other with their Vulnerability 5 (close/area attacks). They do have Blindsight though, so aren't effected by the darkness generated by each other.

Wow, that's really weird... I mean, it's a swarm right? Made up of lots of small critters? You'd think two swarms would essentially be one big swarm; or, in any case, there'd be nothing special about the individual creatures in the swarm that makes them immune to damage from others in the swarm but not from damage from the same creatures a few feet further on.

You could say they form a cohesive, distinct collective such that creatures in a swarm are not interchangeable with those in another. But it's a weird situation. I think it's just an oversight, I'd probably make em immune to each-others auras.

 

[Infiniti2000]

But the current build of darkness gives everyone -5 to hit without attacks or saves. It just seems to break the unwritten balance rules of 4e that other powers are forced to follow.

No, not -5 to everyone. Aren't area and close attacks exempt from concealment penalties?

 

[Starfox]

Yes, you were fighting monsters with a permanent +5 AC / +2 attack... but is that the rules fault? No. That was your DM's decision. He put you there. So the rule can't be considered "broken", because your problem only appeared in a small, specific window of a case.

I thought the DMs job in 4E was to set up encounters where the monsters get to use their special advantages, and it is the player's job to work around them. Otherwise, whats the point in monsters having situational advantages? Yes, it might have been a bit unfair to put the tram in a locked room with three swarms using darkness and blindsight, but maybe they could pick the lock, put up a wall or fire, or otherwise controlled the situation to their advantage?

I am also in the swarms of the same type should not hurt each other camp, tough this can be situational.

 

[Blastin]

Darkness is easy to deal with if you have a wizard that has magic missile.....

 

[Benlo]

No, not -5 to everyone. Aren't area and close attacks exempt from concealment penalties?

I believe they are.

 

[Turtlejay]

And swarms are vulnerable to suck attacks. Suddenly the key to this encounter is revealed. . .

Bad design IMO. Locked door screams railroad to me. Darkness means you can't even pick it, though you could try to force your way out if it got bad.

I did this darkness trick to a party once, and it can be fun, but the locked room seems to kind of cross a line. To me, anyways.

Jay

 

[Doctor Proctor]

I thought the DMs job in 4E was to set up encounters where the monsters get to use their special advantages, and it is the player's job to work around them. Otherwise, whats the point in monsters having situational advantages? Yes, it might have been a bit unfair to put the tram in a locked room with three swarms using darkness and blindsight, but maybe they could pick the lock, put up a wall or fire, or otherwise controlled the situation to their advantage?

While yes, it's true that the DM is supposed to create situations that help out his monsters, he should still put some though into encounter design and how it will impact things.

In the above case it's a confluence of factors that made the encounter rather difficult for the PC's. Swarms are difficult to damage in practice, even moreso when you include darkness in the mix. Having 3 of these monsters in the room was probably too much, and it should've been limited to 1 or 2. This way, they wouldn't be spamming darkness every round, which actually makes for a more dynamic encounter. With the inclusion of some kind of lurker that could benefit from the darkness, it suddenly becomes kind of scary. Now the PC's will randomly be subjected to a situation where a dangerous lurker could be about to really lay the hurt on them, rather than just saying "Oh great, another round of darkness where I have a -5 to hit the guys take half damage..."

Locking the room just adds to the issues by taking any sort of tactical maneuvering out of the equation. If the area were more open and you perhaps included some Artillery with an ability to see through the darkness you would force the PC's to think more tactically about the situation. Do they go into the darkness to fight at a disadvantage, or do they stay outside and wait for it to clear? Perhaps they should use some forced movement powers to separate the artillery from the cloud so that they can take them down before dealing with the swarm? More choices on how to act makes for more dynamic, and usually more fun, encounters.

Oh, and as for the Wall of Fire thing, it's never a good idea to count on a specific PC power to deal with the encounter you made. WoF is a Daily, correct? So what if the Wizard used it earlier in the day and it's no longer available? Or in the case of other powers, what if they miss? It's too risky to rely on the players to use the exact powers at the exact times that you think they should to save an encounter.

 

[Ryujin]

Wow, that's really weird... I mean, it's a swarm right? Made up of lots of small critters? You'd think two swarms would essentially be one big swarm; or, in any case, there'd be nothing special about the individual creatures in the swarm that makes them immune to damage from others in the swarm but not from damage from the same creatures a few feet further on.

You could say they form a cohesive, distinct collective such that creatures in a swarm are not interchangeable with those in another. But it's a weird situation. I think it's just an oversight, I'd probably make em immune to each-others auras.

Try fighting a dozen Drow in a 20 foot wide hallway that's trapped on both ends, in an encounter that's run by a DM who thinks the same thing about Drow, that you do about swarms

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well, any party with a decently built Invoker in it would have found this encounter to be trivial and the locked room greatly to his advantage. So it is really a bit of a situational thing. I can think of other powers, a couple of feats, etc that would also have turned the tables on the monster. So its not even 100% clear that its a "cheap" encounter for many parties. It may or may not have been rather cheap for the particular group and I'm guessing they did find it so.

In general though darkness isn't that big a deal. As others have said a lot of monsters that can generate it have trouble using it effectively without gimping their own allies. It does nothing for the monsters if they are attacked with area or close attacks either. In essence darkness puts a premium on spellcasters. It actually isn't that much different from a swarm in that sense, which tends to do the same thing. Umbral Sprite Swarm in particular just hands out a double dose of that (or even triple as the aura is rather unfriendly to melee types as well).

So, darkness really serves a nice purpose, it helps keep the spell casters in business and feeling special now and then. There are PLENTY of monsters that do the opposite, starting right off at low level with hobgoblins...

 

[FireLance]

Yes, monsters with darkness are significantly tougher for parties that don't have close or area attacks. Apart from that, I don't think there are many specifically anti-darkness powers in the PH, possibly because it is a fairly narrow niche. Divine Power has the revealing light and supernal radiance daily attack powers, though.