D&D 5E Is Duellist style too good without feats.

[Zardnaar]

Against 15 AC, to completely negate the -5 you would need to achieve a +18 to hit (because 1 misses regardless, so if after -5 you still hit on a 2, it didn't do anything). Archery gives you +2, Bless gives you another +2.5. You would need a +13 or so before archery style to completely negate it, which is possible at high levels with a magic weapon.

But yeah, since the tradeoff is better the higher your natural bonus, due to the fact that 5 becomes a smaller percentage of the number of values that hit, you can get close to negating it with those things: if you're, say, level 13 with 20 DEX then you have a +10, up to +12 with archery style. Add Bless and now you still have a +9 or +10 even after the -5, so you only need a 5 or 6 to hit. So you're only removing 3 or 4 ways to hit out of 19, which is definitely a good deal to roughly double your damage on a hit.

Except of course once your high enough level for that, the Cleric doesn't want to be concentrating on Bless any more.

You don't need to completely negate it.

Real life example. Hand crossbow level 11 or 8 20 Dex.

+ 11 to hit, -5 vs ac 16. You hit 50% of the time.

75% hit if you don't.

4 attacks a round as fighter.

2 hits -5 1d6+15 damage. Average damage 37

3 hits without it. 25.5

Before other buffing.

With a bow something similar applies but you get less attacks.

At low levels even with +7 to hit with advantage it's not that hard to hit and the is before any other buffing is done.

+7 to hit plus bless makes it +9.5.

Hitting 50% vs AC 15

Throw in action surge.

Put simply using as is always the best option as long as you can hit 50% of the time.


Buffed plus advantage I've seen it used on AC 20-22.

 

[Shiroiken]

But I would see it as a good thing if, as a result of you having protection style, the monster attacked you instead of attacking the person next to you. Very likely as a martial character with a shield you have higher AC than they do; maybe much higher (probably higher HP too, making you better able to withstand a hit if they don't miss). It might even be the case that getting them to switch their attack to you is more likely to turn a hit into a miss than imposing disadvantage on your ally; plus you still have your reaction available!

In other words, if the DM plays that way, they're making your choice more effective at allowing you to fulfill your 'tank' role.

Per my previous comment.

I think this is the problem with the fighting style: it's DM dependent. I played a paladin with it, and the DM would simply always attack me if the fighting style was applicable. If I was standing next to "squishy" characters I wouldn't have minded, but normally I was on the front line with another high AC character, making my ability nothing more than a target on my back.

I was side by side with a dwarf fighter. We had the same AC, and he had more HP. I wasn't being a "tank," I was being a punching bag. If I'd actually been next to someone with a lower AC or HP, it wouldn't have been quite as bad (still annoying, because granting disadvantage is WAY better than drawing fire), but instead my character's ability was made into a disadvantage.

 

[Zardnaar]

Still want to see two fighters/paladin's with protection style side by side.

 

[Esker]

I've seen it used up to AC 20. crossbow expert plus SS jandcrossbow if you hit more than 50% always use it.

Crossbow expert doesn't change the AC breakpoint for when it's worth using, it just magnifies the effect when it's positive by adding it to more attacks.

We can just look at the damage per attack, since they're all the same.

If your base chance to hit is 50% now, then that becomes 55% if you bump DEX, and you're doing (3.5+4)*0.55 per attack, or 4.125. If you take SS, you're doing (3.5+13)*0.25, which is... also 4.125. So you break even.

You need to be able to hit 65% of the time --- in other words, hitting on a natural 8 --- for -5/+10 to be more than a full point of damage per attack better than boosting DEX. Admittedly that's not that uncommon, especially factoring in Archery style: at level 5 with +3 DEX and archery style you'll have a +8 to hit, so you'll hit AC 16 or less that often, which is pretty common.

So against enemies in the AC 13-16 range, if you already have CBE, taking SS instead of boosting DEX is buying you about 4-7 DPR, at the cost of +1 AC, +1 to stealth, +1 to initiative, etc. That's probably worth it if you're a damage-focused character. But it's not exactly earth-shattering. The Hex spell would give that same character about 7-9 DPR, for example.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I was side by side with a dwarf fighter. We had the same AC, and he had more HP. I wasn't being a "tank," I was being a punching bag. If I'd actually been next to someone with a lower AC or HP, it wouldn't have been quite as bad (still annoying, because granting disadvantage is WAY better than drawing fire), but instead my character's ability was made into a disadvantage.

That sounds like a simple miscommunication as to what the ability is supposed to do. The actual power that you chose was, in effect, "encourage enemies to attack you, instead of someone next to you, because they don't want Disadvantage." They probably could have explained its purpose more clearly.

The Barbarian in my game was similarly surprised, when he got to level 14 and automatically imposed Disadvantage on every enemy attack against an ally. He thought it would reduce enemy accuracy against allies, but the actual effect was to make sure that every attack was aimed against him. That's the whole point of the ability, though. It's the tank ability, which makes you a target.

 

[Esker]

You don't need to completely negate it.

Agreed.

Real life example. Hand crossbow level 11 or 8 20 Dex...

Sure, so you're gaining about +11.5 DPR from the -5/+10 feature. Great!

But notice that you are making a level 11 comparison. I said when I started that at higher levels these feats are a better deal because you will have already maxed out your attack stat.

I'm not trying to convince anybody that the feat isn't powerful; just that if you do appropriate comparisons it doesn't look so completely out of line with other things.

Buffed plus advantage I've seen it used on AC 20-22.

Even if you have advantage you still need to be able to hit on a 10 for -5/+10 to be better than +1/+1. However, that's pretty easy if you have archery style, and if you do have advantage, the benefits go up much more quickly as enemy AC goes down from there.

That said, how are you getting advantage regularly as an archer? Sure, there could be a caster dedicating resources, actions, and their concentration to giving it to you, but at what opportunity cost? A bard casting Faerie Fire isn't casting Hypnotic Pattern... A druid isn't casting Conjure Animals. A cleric casting Bless isn't casting Spirit Guardians. Etc.

 

[Don Durito]

The thing about AC is that, the more you have, the more you benefit from any further increase. That's why the fighting style is so meaningful to a fighter with a shield. It's actually a tough choice, between that and the +2 damage. Especially when you consider that you're going to be on the receiving end of more attacks than you give, and the rest of the party is there to contribute damage. If you remove the damage option from tank fighters, then you've just made the decision easier for them.

The only one who really loses out is the Champion tank, who would otherwise take both great options. But if they see you're implementing this house rule that would nerf only that one specific build, then they can just choose to play something else in this one campaign.

Incidentally, AC scaling is also why they can get away with giving greatweapon fighters an inferior fighting style. They may only get +1.33 damage out of it, but their AC is low enough that +1 to AC wouldn't really help them much.

That’s true but I would worry that the guy with the high AC and low damage is a lower priority threat than the high damage guy with the more effective opportunity attack.

 

[Zardnaar]

Agreed.



Sure, so you're gaining about +11.5 DPR from the -5/+10 feature. Great!

But notice that you are making a level 11 comparison. I said when I started that at higher levels these feats are a better deal because you will have already maxed out your attack stat.

I'm not trying to convince anybody that the feat isn't powerful; just that if you do appropriate comparisons it doesn't look so completely out of line with other things.



Even if you have advantage you still need to be able to hit on a 10 for -5/+10 to be better than +1/+1. However, that's pretty easy if you have archery style, and if you do have advantage, the benefits go up much more quickly as enemy AC goes down from there.

That said, how are you getting advantage regularly as an archer? Sure, there could be a caster dedicating resources, actions, and their concentration to giving it to you, but at what opportunity cost? A bard casting Faerie Fire isn't casting Hypnotic Pattern... A druid isn't casting Conjure Animals. A cleric casting Bless isn't casting Spirit Guardians. Etc.

Mastermind Rogue can grant advantage at will and I've seen them in play.

And when you have 2-3 spellcasters lots of low level spells are available. Faerie Fire is available on a lot of classes now.

 

[Esker]

Mastermind Rogue can grant advantage at will and I've seen them in play.

Yes, instead of making their own off-hand attack, or hiding, or disengaging, or whatever, they can grant you advantage on one attack, which adds maybe 4 damage to the round, if you're facing the ideal AC. And maybe that's the best use of their bonus action! It's certainly more than they'd be buying by granting you advantage if you didn't have a -5/+10. It's less than they'd buy by hiding to get advantage themselves, if they're ranged too; it's also less than they'd buy by using their bonus action to make an offhand attack if they missed their main attack, if they're a melee rogue. It's also less than they'd buy by granting advantage to the paladin if they're planning to smite on that attack. Yeah, you'll probably get it sometimes. But it'd be misleading to do an analysis of the relative value of SS assuming you're going to get on even one attack per round.

And when you have 2-3 spellcasters lots of low level spells are available. Faerie Fire is available on a lot of classes now.

The issue isn't availability of those spells; the issue is that they can only concentrate one thing. For important fights, the bard or Fey Warlock probably wants to use Hypnotic Pattern (especially the Feylock, since they'd be using the same spell slot either way!); the Light Cleric probably wants to use Spirit Guardians; the Druid probably wants to summon some things; ok, maybe the bard or wizard will use Blindness on one of the creatures that make their save vs Hypnotic Pattern, but that's a CON save every round.

 

[Esker]

The odd thing about the Mastermind is that they get the most mileage out of their main ability when there's another rogue in the party... Not all that Mastermind-y, if you ask me.