Is "extra damage" a game term?

[RigaMortus2]

The reason I ask is because there is a feat in PHB2 called "Penetrating Shot". It basically allows you to change a projectile or thrown weapon attack into a 60' line attack, hitting any enemies on that line (assuming you make the attack rolls against each enemy). But it specifcially says:

If struck, creatures along this line take damage from your shot, though any extra damage (such as from sneak attack or a flaming weapon) is applied only against the first creature struck.

Seems straight-forward... Then I thought about Power Attack (which obviously can't be used with ranged attacks), which lead me to Power Shot (from the Peerless Archer PrC, which I realize is a 3.0 book). Anyway, the Power Shot ability from the Peerless Archer is pretty much the same as Power Attack, but it never specifcially states that this damage is considered "extra damage".

On her action, before making any attack rolls, she may choose to subtract a number from all ranged attack rolls and add the same number to all ranged damage rolls. This number may not exceed her base attack bonus. The penalty on her attack rolls and bonus on her damage rolls apply until her next action.

So would you be able to apply the bonus damage from Power Shot to any opponent you hit beyond the first when using Penetrating Shot feat? I can input another feat to make this question more 3.5 relevant, Power Shot is just the first one that came to mind. Point Blank Shot would work too (for those within the 30 feet), as it adds a bonus +1 to hit and damage. It too doesn't specifically call it "extra damage".

So what do YOU think?

 

[Ferrix]

Yeah it is.

Check out the Flaming weapon special ability.

Flaming

Upon command, a flaming weapon is sheathed in fire. The fire does not harm the wielder. The effect remains until another command is given. A flaming weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the fire energy upon their ammunition.

Moderate evocation; CL 10th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor and flame blade, flame strike, or fireball; Price +1 bonus.

Or the rogues sneak attack ability.

Sneak Attack

If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this b]extra damage[/b] is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.

A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

And now the Weapon Specialization feat...

Weapon Specialization [General]

Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for purposes of this feat. You deal extra damage when using this weapon.
Prerequisites

Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, fighter level 4th.
Benefit

You gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special

You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

A fighter may select Weapon Specialization as one of his fighter bonus feats.

And power attack...

Power Attack [General]
Prerequisite

Str 13.
Benefit

On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.
Special

If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)

A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

So it seems there is a difference between extra damage and a bonus to damage. Extra damage would be those additions which aren't multiplied by critical hits while a bonus to damage is always multiplied by critical hits. Thus, if you follow these feats and abilities as examples for what is extra damage vs. a bonus to damage, I'd say it's sort of clear what is applied to Penetrating Shot and what is not.

 

[TheGogmagog]

Edit: After reading Ferrix's post his guidlines seem to be more reliable than mine.

So what do YOU think?

They seem to be consistent that extra damage is additional dice/variable damage. Anything that adds an unnamed or enhancement bonus of a fixed amount is carried over and is included in critical hit multiplication.

So if you house rulled point blank shot to give +1 attack and +1d2 damage. It would no longer apply to the penetrating shot or be multiplied. I would suspect if you had a weapon that did 1 point of holy damage (I think I read a paladin spell the other day that did this). The holy damage would be extra damage even though it is a fixed ammount because it's a named type of damage.

 

[Iku Rex]

"Extra damage" is not a game term. It's not defined anywhere. It's used both to refer to extra damage dice (flaming weapon, sneak attack) and straight damage bonuses (smite, Weapon Specialization), as well as in "extra damage from critical hits".

I'm pretty sure the Penetrating Shot feat is talking about "extra damage dice". (As in "[e]xtra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied", from "multiplying damage" in the PH.) See the examples offered in the feat description.

 

[Ferrix]

Extra damage while not defined anywhere seems to be specifically different from a bonus to damage. Their wording in everything seems to be consistent and purposeful.

I don't believe it has anything to do with the damage being typed/named but that it either multiplies on a critical hit or not. Extra damage seems to always imply that it doesn't multiply on a crit, while a bonus to damage or an amount added to damage does multiply on a crit.

 

[Iku Rex]

Extra damage seems to always imply that it doesn't multiply on a crit, while a bonus to damage or an amount added to damage does multiply on a crit.

Smite is multiplied on a crit. Weapon Specialization is multiplied on a crit. According to the rules, crits give you "extra damage".

So again, there is no "consistent and purposeful" use of "extra damage" in the rules.

 

[Corsair]

Smite is multiplied on a crit. Weapon Specialization is multiplied on a crit. According to the rules, crits give you "extra damage".

So again, there is no "consistent and purposeful" use of "extra damage" in the rules.

At least in the SRD, the description of critical hits uses the word "extra" once. That is when refering to "extra" damage dice, such as from sneak attack. As far as I can tell, dice are extra, numbers are bonuses.

 

[Ferrix]

Smite is multiplied on a crit. Weapon Specialization is multiplied on a crit. According to the rules, crits give you "extra damage".

So again, there is no "consistent and purposeful" use of "extra damage" in the rules.

Criticals are a multiplication of damage, it is never described as "extra damage" anywhere I can find.

 

[Iku Rex]

At least in the SRD, the description of critical hits uses the word "extra" once.That is when refering to "extra" damage dice, such as from sneak attack.

A few examples:

(Unlike the rogue’s sneak attack, the psychic strike is not precision damage and can affect creatures otherwise immune to extra damage from critical hits or more than 30 feet away, provided they are living, nonmindless creatures not immune to mind-affecting effects.)-- http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm

You are immune to extra damage from critical hits, ability damage, disease, drowning, and poison. You take only half damage from acid, electricity, and fire of all kinds.-- http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/shadowBody.htm

The exact same wording appears in stone body from the recently published Spell Compendium.

As far as I can tell, dice are extra, numbers are bonuses.

<sigh>
For the third time, now with quotes:

Once per day, a paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day.-- http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm

Once per day the creature can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD total (maximum of +20) against a good/evil foe. -- http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fiendishCreature.htm and http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/celestialCreature.htm

Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for purposes of this feat. You deal extra damage when using this weapon.-- http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#weaponSpecialization

 

[Delemental]

Smite is multiplied on a crit. Weapon Specialization is multiplied on a crit. According to the rules, crits give you "extra damage".

So again, there is no "consistent and purposeful" use of "extra damage" in the rules.

Actually, I'm not seeing in the SRD where crits give you "extra damage". The only place I see those words is where it says that "extra damage over and above a weapon's normal damage is not multiplied".

EDIT: Okay, so Iku Rex found some references in other parts of the SRD to support his point. I have an annoying tendency not to look up the rules on psionic powers when referencing rules on critical hits, so you might understand why my initial reaction was to doubt your claim.

And both Smite and Weapon Specialization appear to add to your normal damage, thus are part of the crit multiplier. The d6 fire damage from a flaming weapon is caused by the fire, not the weapn itself, and thus doesn't multiply. Likewise, a rogue's sneak attack damage stems from the character ability, not the weapon.

In general, I have to agree with Corsair; even though not explicitly stated, it seems that "extra damage" generally means extra dice of damage, while bonuses are added to normal damage.

EDIT: And though again Iku did find some contrary references, it seems that the 'extra dice don't get multiplied' is a good rule of thumb. Of course, this being the Rules forum, I'm sure that this will never do.