D&D 4E Is Intelligence 4e's dump stat?

psionotic said:
This might swing back to making Intelligence too good, but I think it would be great if everyone got to choose a trained skill for each point of Int modifier (or even every two points of Intelligence modifier).


It's what they have in Star Wars and it doesn't make INT that special.

But this...

"Trained Skills: Stealth and Thievery plus four others. From the class skills list below, choose four more trained skills at 1st level."

Makes no mention of your INT modifier effecting the number of trained skills so it seems unlikely.
 

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I bet Int will be the attack bonus/damage stat for a few of the Wizard's powers, much like how Dex is the attack/damage stat for some Rogue powers. The same probably holds true for other classes having Int as key ability.
 

AllisterH said:
1. CON will be a stat that is NOT a primary one for any class, yet will be important for all classes due to other mechanics that cross over all of the classes.
Actually, we know it might be a primary stat for Fighters from the Design & Development article on Classes. When two players are discussing what kind of Fighters they've built, one mentions that he thought about going with high Con and wielding a hammer. It's strongly suggested from the article that Str, Con, and Wis are a Fighter's 3 most important abilities.

(Well, Con & Wis are mentioned. I just assume that Str is important.)

Jonathan Moyer said:
I bet Int will be the attack bonus/damage stat for a few of the Wizard's powers, much like how Dex is the attack/damage stat for some Rogue powers. The same probably holds true for other classes having Int as key ability.
I think this is almost a certainty -- in fact, I'll bet that *most* Wizard spells have Int as their primary attack stat -- but other than the Wizard, are there any classes that use Int as a primary attack ability? Warlords seems to be pretty physical, and they're the only other class for which we know Int is important.
 
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Intelligence = Clever?

I've never thought so. There are plenty of geniuses that aren't clever in the slightest.

Ability to reason... ability to retain knowledge... but ability to think on your feet? Nah.

That's Wisdom (perception, worldliness, intuition, common sense).

Once you start arguing about what the stats "mean," you've conceded the battle about how relevant it is, more or less.

This isn't really about what Int and Wis and Cha "mean." We all have a pretty decent notion of that, I'd assume, even if we might bicker on specific examples.

This is about Int still being useful as a stat. Specifically, to rogues. It would seem that rogues should be able to make great use of Intelligence. It helped them out in 3e, and the "rogue with a high Intelligence score," however you defined that in terms of role-playing, was a valid and worthy and useful character build. Mechanically, Intelligence would seem likely to help with puzzle-solving, challenges of knowledge, and memory and pattern recognition. A rogue's archetype is fairly broad, but I can't think of a better "information broker," or "Knows a little bit of everything" kind of class. Appraising your finds, knowing how much you can fence this item for, evaluating 'worth' in the middle of a hectic situation are all typically Intelligence. Heck, the Sneak Attack/backstab feature has been fluffed in previous editions as a matter of knowledge, that the theif/rogue has a brain that can learn where to hit people better than other classes. This would all suggest that a rogue should benefit from a high Int.

So clever could be high Int, or high Wis, or high Cha, or high Dex, or even high Con or Str with the right color and angle on it. The point remains that for many people, me included, it seems decidedly bizarre to have a rogue who is a bit slow on the uptake.

So if a character whose archetype revolves at least somewhat around things that can decidedly be linked to a high Intelligence score, and yet has no encouragement to take a high Intelligence score (or even to avoid a low one), it's not altogether out-of-the-blue to suggest that Intelligence might not be useful for nearly as many characters as it was in 3e.

The quality of this change, whether it's good or bad, is going to be open to debate.

A rogue with a high Intelligence as a good character build has been established. Now, it's existence is perhaps not so secure.

And I'll also say that conflating Wisdom with "worldliness" and "common sense" is a little problematic. Wisdom is often described more as an instinctive kind of perception, whereas Intelligence is a learned, acquired, and developed kind of perception, the ability to recognize patterns and recall information.

Knowing how to find food might be Wisdom, because it's instinctive. Knowing which streets to avoid in a twisty city is more likely to be Intelligence, because it's learned. Knowing which berries are poisonous is likely an Intelligence thing, because it's acquired knowledge. Knowing how to avoid a sword in a fight might be Wisdom -- it's self-preservation. Knowing where to strike an enemy for the most damage would probably be Intelligence -- it's acquired, learned knowledge. Being able to decieve and fool an enemy in the middle of combat is probably Charisma. That's part of the rogue model that seems very interesting, very "trickster," very "clever."

What is a little more dissonant for me is the idea of an "athletic" rogue with a good Strength score. Sure, Strength probably shouldn't be a dump stat, but it won't be for any class who is concerned with making melee attacks of having a good Athletics score (as the rogue is). The "thug" is a good archetype, but thugs aren't usually drawn as very brilliant combatants, just very powerful, so another class (perhaps fighter, perhaps some sort of 'gladiator,' barbarian if it still existed, a pure unarmed-strike monk) would be good for them, and, indeed, could make good use of a high Wisdom score as a sort of instinctive battle awareness. The fact that Wizards catered directly to this rather than the Intelligent rogue strikes me as an odd choice, but I could see a few meta-reasons for it (such as wanting each class to have one "physical" and one "mental" build).

In fact, it would strike me that the most likely dump stats for a rogue would be Wisdom (the archetypal naive rogue who can't help but steal and doesn't know when he's getting in over his head lacks that sort of instinctive self-preservation) or Constitution (the fragile little buddy who can dish it out but can't take it, so he needs the typical big tough thug as backup).

I'd love for the game to support the well-treaded archetype of a rogue who is easily lead by his greed, who knows the ins and outs of the labyrinthine city, who is intelligent enough to know how to strike a victim where it hurts, and who thwart the sphinx in a puzzle contest, but who still can't resist the thrill of the next big catch, the lure of the legendary gem, or the challenge of the world's most deadly tomb. This would seem to be best supported by a high-Intelligence rogue with a lousy Wisdom. He'd still be agile and tricky (with a good Dexterity, a good Charisma), but he wouldn't get his way with muscle (middling Strength, middling Constitution). His achilles heel would be his low willpower (low Wisdom), his best asset would be his brilliant deductive mind (high Intelligence).

You also have other concepts of Intelligent rogues. The Sherlock Holmes type. The Indiana Jones type. Heck, even the Bilbo Baggins type. The brilliant con man who uses a combination of bravado (Charisma) and intricate language (Intelligence) to trap you in a perfectly legal and binding contract that you nonetheless want out of. Rogues often get called upon to play the "adventuring sage" archetype. But without much of a mechanical incentive to be an Intelligent Rogue...it could throw a wrench in those being valid builds for the game at launch.

So this long post is my way of trying to drive home the fact that, Mourn, the question of what stat represents "clever" is entirely moot. Intelligent rogues were a supported archetype, and it doesn't look like there will be support for such a character at launch. As such, questioning the nature of Intelligence in 4e is important, if one of the historically iconic Int-based classes doesn't have much use for it.

For an example of your iconic intelligent rogue, look no farther than Thief of 8-Bit Theater, or even at the whole motif of the Devils in 4e. In 4e, a player seeking to play a Thief-like character (and the archetype is much older than Clevinger's take on it) would have no reason to choose the most theif-like class (the rogue). That seems kind of counter-intuitive.
 
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The quote from R&C that gives characters a flat bonus to all trained skills relative to your int bonus seems like all that's needed to prevent int from becoming a dump stat.

Conisder two level 4 rogues, both dex 16, one has int 8, one has int 14.

smart rogue has a stealth bonus of 2 + 3 + 2 + 5 = +12

Dumb rogue has a stealth bonus of 2 + 3 - 1 + 5 = +9

Considering that all trained skills would work this way, I think int is going to be fairly popular.
 


Valdrax said:
I think this is almost a certainty -- in fact, I'll bet that *most* Wizard spells have Int as their primary attack stat -- but other than the Wizard, are there any classes that use Int as a primary attack ability? Warlords seems to be pretty physical, and they're the only other class for which we know Int is important.
I'm sure Int will be a key ability for other classes. But, admittedly, I don't know what those could be. :)
 

Puggins said:
The quote from R&C that gives characters a flat bonus to all trained skills relative to your int bonus seems like all that's needed to prevent int from becoming a dump stat.

Conisder two level 4 rogues, both dex 16, one has int 8, one has int 14.

smart rogue has a stealth bonus of 2 + 3 + 2 + 5 = +12

Dumb rogue has a stealth bonus of 2 + 3 - 1 + 5 = +9

Considering that all trained skills would work this way, I think int is going to be fairly popular.
That might work, but might also make Int too good.

Perhaps there's a list of "Background Skills" like Knowledges, Craft, etc, available to every character and class at first level, and you start the game with one skill per Int modifier. Increasing Inteligence might add another skill, but not a class skill. (DM could even customize the list from race and environment - like adding Wilderness for a deep forest PoL setting, or Bluff and Diplomacy for nobles),
 

erf_beto said:
That might work, but might also make Int too good.

Perhaps there's a list of "Background Skills" like Knowledges, Craft, etc, available to every character and class at first level, and you start the game with one skill per Int modifier. Increasing Inteligence might add another skill, but not a class skill. (DM could even customize the list from race and environment - like adding Wilderness for a deep forest PoL setting, or Bluff and Diplomacy for nobles),

Not only does it make int too good, it makes training too good.

One of the whole reasons the new skill system was created (at least in Saga, again assuming 4e works very similarly) was to prevent huge gaps in skills competency between classes. You want a rogue to be more stealthy than a fighter, but not so much more so that the fighter might as well never try.

Right now if training and skill focus each grant +5 (again another assumption) than that's +10. Add in a smart character and you have another +3 or +4. The gap just keep getting wider.

This is one of those things I'll be chomping at teh bit to find out how it actually works.
 

Kamikaze Midget said:
<snip>

For an example of your iconic intelligent rogue, look no farther than Thief of 8-Bit Theater, or even at the whole motif of the Devils in 4e. In 4e, a player seeking to play a Thief-like character (and the archetype is much older than Clevinger's take on it) would have no reason to choose the most theif-like class (the rogue). That seems kind of counter-intuitive.

Great post and I agree with this archtype with one small addition. The 3.x rogue that is rewarded for high intelligence is a new archtype to D&D that we would hate to lose.

Only thing we can hope on is maybe a preview of feats/skills/talents that show why anyone would want to have a high stat in a non-primary skill.
 

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