D&D 4E Is Intelligence 4e's dump stat?

[Thornir Alekeg]

I really hope Int is a dump stat for the Rogue. Especially with a point buy standard, everybody needs a dump stat. Rogues had it tough because they wanted Int to enhance their skill monkey mojo, Str Dex and Con for the obvious reasons, Cha for Bluff and Intimidate, Wis for Spot, Search, Listen and Will saves.

IMO Rogues had to make a bigger sacrifice than other classes in assigning their lowest score.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I really hope Int is a dump stat for the Rogue. Especially with a point buy standard, everybody needs a dump stat. Rogues had it tough because they wanted Int to enhance their skill monkey mojo, Str Dex and Con for the obvious reasons, Cha for Bluff and Intimidate, Wis for Spot, Search, Listen and Will saves.

IMO Rogues had to make a bigger sacrifice than other classes in assigning their lowest score.

Considering that virtually all successful fantasy lit. thieves or roguish types are intelligent (as well as action movie thieves etc.), are extremely intelligent, from The Grey Mouser to Locke Lamora, I think it would be an absolute travesty if Int was the "dump stat" for Rogues. It was perilously close to being so even in 3E, frankly, and the idea that being smart is no use to a Rogue, it's just mindblowing. How are you going to scheme if you're as thick as two short planks? How are you going to plan elaborate robberies or defeat incredibly complex traps if you've got an int of 6? Yuck.

Wisdom is a much better dump stat for Rogues, but D&D insists, in the 3E and 4E, on illogically linking it with sensory stuff (which, irl, is closely linked to intelligence, but w/e), making it mandatory that all Rogues are sensible and/or wise. Which is perverse in the extreme.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Wisdom is a much better dump stat for Rogues, but D&D insists, in the 3E and 4E, on illogically linking it with sensory stuff (which, irl, is closely linked to intelligence, but w/e), making it mandatory that all Rogues are sensible and/or wise. Which is perverse in the extreme.

Wisdom would be a perfect dump stat for rogues, and I'd love the game to death if it found a way to make Con a valid dump stat (so that you don't die because of a strong breeze if you want to be a more sickly or fragile character).

We haven't seen the whole thing yet, but it strikes me that one of my multitude of 4e house rules may be to change everything STR-based about the rogue to be INT-based instead.

Because hyper-muscled smooth-talkers aren't the archetypes of rogues and thieves and sneaks and 'specialists' that I know of or want to play.

 

[Atreides]

This is (of course) entirely speculative - but my guess is that Int will provide a bonus of Trained skills equal to your Int modifier at first level. These skills must be selected from a specific list, one which includes only 'generic' skills (basically the skills in 3e that could be used untrained). Thievery, for instance, will not be on that list - perception will be.

Intelligence will either also (or alternately) provide a bonus equal to your Intelligence modifier to all Trained skills.

My guess is the former - but really it is all idle speculation at this point.

 

[AllisterH]

I never udnerstood how Wisdom could be a dump stat for a thief. Hell, scratch that, I can't see how Wisdom could be a dump stat for ANY class. With a below average score, a character won't live long enough to get to mid levels.

Sure, the thief might be able to come up with the elegant robbery planes but its wisdom that tells him robbing from "Da Capo" is not a wise move.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I never udnerstood how Wisdom could be a dump stat for a thief. Hell, scratch that, I can't see how Wisdom could be a dump stat for ANY class. With a below average score, a character won't live long enough to get to mid levels.

You could make that case about ANY of the stats, though. One of the strong archetypes of the rogue is someone who is reckless and heedless of consequences, who is more interested in the challenge and the amusement it provides than in self-preservation. A character without a high STR won't live long because they won't be able to defend themselves. A character without a high DEX won't live long because they won't be able to dodge anything. A character without a high CON won't live long because they don't have the hp. A character without a high INT won't live long because they won't be able to connect the dots before it's too late. A character without a high CHA won't live long because he will only make enemies.

Sure, the thief might be able to come up with the elegant robbery planes but its wisdom that tells him robbing from "Da Capo" is not a wise move.

Mechanically, no it isn't. The player is what tells him that it's not a wise move. And that might even be out-of-character for certain types of rogues. "Da Capo" might be a prime target for a strike from within the Guild, after all, totally unprepared for mutiny just below him. And it's his Intelligence that lets him get away with such a brazen manuever (being able to plan out elaborate cause-and-effect sequences and such).

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Wisdom would be a perfect dump stat for rogues, and I'd love the game to death if it found a way to make Con a valid dump stat (so that you don't die because of a strong breeze if you want to be a more sickly or fragile character).

OK, I can see that. I guess to me the idea of Int as a dump stat makes the most sense if everything else remains the same as in 3e, but it would be more logical to change other aspects so that Wisdom would be a better choice.

And I agree about wanting to see some changes to Con. Between the HP and Fort save bonuses you just don't see people willing to short themselves on it very often and have a character with a decent chance for survival.

 

[Gundark]

Why think you it a dump stat?


Okay seriously, no I don't think that INT will be a dump stat. For the rogue...sure, overall no. I suspect that the wizards will need INT quite a bit. Also INT (my suspicon) will give you more trained skills, so a skill rogue will still need a higher INT.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I never udnerstood how Wisdom could be a dump stat for a thief. Hell, scratch that, I can't see how Wisdom could be a dump stat for ANY class. With a below average score, a character won't live long enough to get to mid levels.

Sure, the thief might be able to come up with the elegant robbery planes but its wisdom that tells him robbing from "Da Capo" is not a wise move.

Do you even read fantasy, or scratch that, even watch TV? How many complex, beautiful criminal plans are genuinely sensible? In fiction, the answer is very few. Even the most beautiful plans (like those in The Usual Suspects or Inside Man) contain huge elements of risk and not necessarily extremely "sensible". The very act of deciding to commit crime may well be rational but again, is unlikely to be truly "wise".

The very archetype of "The Thief" or "The Rogue" is someone whose lack of common sense gets them into danger and adventure. If their stupidity gets them into danger and adventure, they're a clown, not a rogue. Like Jar-Jar Binks. Is that what you want? Jar-Jar Binks for the 4E Rogue? Is it??!?!!!??!

Okay, I admit, the Jar-Jar Binks stuff is nonsense, but archetypically, "The Thief" is not a "wise" person in any sense other than streetwise.

 

[Snapdragyn]

I am SO having a 4e low-INT rogue named Bar-Bar Jinks now.

'Me-sa have GREATS plan!'