D&D 5E Is it fair to cast save-or-suck spells on the players?

Quickleaf

Legend
How difficult was the encounter as calculated, if I might ask? Deadly?

5 x 19th-level PCs: Storm Cleric, Four Elements Monk, Devotion Paladin, Champion Fighter Archer, Arcane Trickster.

Monsters:
CR25 Lich (all wizard spells known, 473hp)
2 x CR18 16th level undead spellcasters (same spell list as a Lich),
2 x CR10 spectral Githyanki Knights
2 x CR17 Adult Red Dragons without wings (possibly without Legendary Actions?)

The Lich-Queen Encounter
Total XP: 162,800
Adjusted XP: 407,000

Encounter XP Thresholds for this party
Easy: 12,000 exp
Medium: 24,500 exp
Hard: 36,500 exp
Deadly: 54,500 exp

Adventuring Day XP for this party
30,000 per 19th level PC
30,000 * 5 = 150,000

The technical term would be "Very Deadly" B-) or possibly "Metal."
 
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Draegn

Explorer
With the exception of special opponents I give the players the same that they give various NPCs. I may change things a bit for fun. Having an enemy mage cast a ball of water as an opposite to the player elementalist's fire ball.
 

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
I remember playing the old Baldur's Gate PC games where if your character died, you had to reload. There were a few battles where if you didn't have the correct defences on you then you were suddenly seeing the game over/reload screen. A lich encounter really stands out in my mind as being crazy annoying and having me go back to my spellbooks to seek out defensive spells that might let me live long enough win the encounter.
 

ccs

41st lv DM
Yes it's fair. And it should be expected.

Me? I'd finish wiping the floor with the active PCs, coup-de-grace anyone still twitching, & send a hit squad to eliminate that banished fighter. HE can't return to the Astral plane. But he could rally help. And it'll keep him active in the game a few minutes more. Besides, bad guys that powerful aren't known for being nice/playing fair.
 

Sadras

Legend
How do you know this? x 2

Check out the link to the thread the OP provided.

Taking an NPC out of combat and letting him sit there twiddling his thumbs isn't unfun. Sitting there twiddling your thumbs after 1 ability takes you out of combat with no hope of getting back into it before you really do anything. Yea that's not fun.

Are you implying entire generations were not having fun in the 70's, 80's, 90's and the 2000's?

Maybe. Or from the sound of it his players didn't find the outcome very fun.

Two questions: How long have you been playing D&D? Are you a badwrongfun advocate?

Not all complaints are illegitimate.

Agree.

OP should have had the evemy wizards use some slightly different spells. Prismatic Spray was not a good call. Maze wasn't as bad as the party likely could have broken the concentration on that. The enemy mages focus firing one of the party members left in the fight may not have been the most fun thing either depending on the amount of healing the party could quickly dish out. It's a game. It's about fun. Whether something is fair or not doesn't impact it's fun value

Now if they were playing dungeon gauntlet 40000 and all expected a tactical no holds barred masterpiece... well then I'll stand corrected!

Well, check out the thread the OP links to - the majority of those that replied (I'm assuming most were DM's) informed him to go full out. Guess you knew better and they were advising much badwrongfun? :confused:

Just to point out my post that you replied to did not even mention the word 'fun'.
 
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S'mon

Legend
Guess they should've brought someone with Counterspell... :p ...Or not attacked Vlaakith.
If they complain at that, imagine how much they'd've complained about Forcecage!

(BTW if I were running this I'd have stuck to 1e lore that Vlaakith does not allow any Githyanki above 10th level - unless maybe they were mindless extensions of herself. That would have made running this faster & more fun IMO.)
 
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Fanaelialae

Legend
By your own admission in the other thread, this fight was intended to be unfair.

The spells themselves aren't unfair (although overuse of them is unfun IMO) but using 3 high level arcane casters to spam them against a relatively low magic party was not a good call, IMO. Furthermore, it doesn't make sense as the lich queen is famous for removing any who might challenge her. I think the fight would have been fine without the two liches.
 

So, thanks for the replies all! This kind of blew up while I was sleeping, so there's lots to respond to here. Others have already answered queries about overall difficulty (insanely high, which was not the source of player complaints) and observed that the players had the option of freely walking away [1]. It's fair to note that the triple high level spellcaster is a pretty hellish thing to face, but I think we should also note that it wasn't the concern expressed by the players.

The party is actually winning this fight, I should note. We had to end with it still ongoing - 3 hours of dice rolling wasn't enough, sigh - but the players have killed both dragons, both Kr'y'izoths (16th level Liches) and one of the Tl'a'ikiths, with the other on 12 hp, while Vlaakith herself has no spells above 5th level left and is down to 240hp. Even with the party heavily battered (so that they've each lost ~100hp, having used most resources) and down two party members, I think it's fair to say that they'll win in a couple turns unless the dice go abnormally badly for them. My tactics got very shaky towards the end of the fight - it was a mentally exhausting one to run - but with Concentration used on the Monk's maze it is unlikely that I'll be able to do anything particularly clever beyond just spamming high damage cantrips and counterspelling anything the Cleric tries to do. The party got to this point by using twin anti-magic fields and splitting up enough that AoEs were worthless, while focusing down the threats one at a time.

The Power Word Stun was abnormally effective because the Rogue has Con 8, and it's a DC 21 save. So, yeah. The Paladin eventually ended it with some special ability of his, but he had to kill a Dragon to clear a path. The Cleric didn't help since he was inside his own Antimagic field. Them splitting up so much, and using two separate Antimagic Fields, had the result that I had to rely on single-target spells to affect the three viable targets, meaning that I was using save-or-suck more than I normally would. Hence why they got hit by such potent ones with such frequency. I actually picked Prismatic Spray just because two players were standing in a line, and it was the highest level line or cone effect that I could find; I didn't even know it did banishment effects!

Uhm, I've talked too much again. But in short; the players were complaining about being hit by these spells that they often had no realistic ability to escape from quickly. We might fairly say that their complaints were touching on the way 5e saving throws are allocated. I countered by observing that these are player spells, and that I'm loath to nerf them since that starts us on a route of nerfing all player abilities; but the player in question responded that what was fair to use on an NPC is not necessarily fair to use on a PC, because it might mean a player gets to do nothing. This is... true, but the consequence is that NPCs never use very common PC tactics like stun-lock or banishment.


[1] I often have BBEGs make a boastful, "Why don't you flee now?!" comments, so the players usually ignore it. However, they were actually fairly tempted by it this time. When they walked into the room, and the illusion covering the bad guys faded so that everyone could size each other up, Vlaakith stood up and said, "I know you are here because you want to free the Hobgoblin slaves. If you walk out of here now, you can achieve that goal - I will free them to you directly - and nobody has to get hurt." They trusted her word, and gave it due consideration - but they decided that they wanted to kill her regardless. It was an interesting moment though, watching the players decide whether they wanted to just skip the rest of the dungeon I'd spent days preparing :D
 

Furthermore, it doesn't make sense as the lich queen is famous for removing any who might challenge her. I think the fight would have been fine without the two liches.

You'd have to take that up with Chris Perkins, to be honest; I'm running the fight exactly as written in his adventure, only updated to 5e as elegantly as I could manage.

Edit: I was a bit harsh there, sorry. From Power Score, here's why she has so many weird and powerful servants:

This adventure is about Vlaakith (a descendent of the original lich-queen. There have been many Vlaakiths). She devours githyanki souls with an artifact called the crown of corruption, tuning them into undead servants:

  • Tl'aikith: Incorporeal githyanki knights wielding spectral swords.
  • Kr'y'izoth: Former warlocks and gish, now entities of flickering black flame in tattered robes.
Part of my prep was writing up the crown as a fairly insane little artifact, which I'm imagining the players will be deeply unhappy to acquire.
 
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Sadras

Legend
Thank you [MENTION=32659]Charles Rampant[/MENTION] for the update.
Well done on playing the bad guys true and well done to your players. ;)
 

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