D&D 5E Is It Impossible To Benefit From 'One With Shadows'?

[Helldritch]

Just a little clarification: I had more problems with the "hide in plain sight" part, meaning that a rogue could not do what you where saying in the middle of nowhere with onlookers. Since it does not seem the case given your example, it seems more of a misnoming than anything else. We agree

Also, i'm glad nobody noticed my "since you are not hidden, you can't hide"

Nope didn't notice...
As for hide in plain sight... You do need a distraction. Be it that you move out of sight or that your audience lose sight of you even for a second. That is where Eggshell flash bombs comes into play. POOF! Lots of smoke and where's the rogue????

Alchemist in my campaign are selling them for about 5gp each. Inspired by oriental adventures 1ed. I'm sure that it will come up someday in a future supplement.

 

[ryan92084]

The normal eyesight, hearing or smell range isn't defined in the rules for that stuff so i think what matters is only encounter range at this point. Only things on the screen play scene are actually in encounter range to use a TV reference, the rest who cares lol you'll only get to deal with it when it'll be on the show

It's often overlooked as it isn't truely RaW but the official DM screen does have rules/suggestions for the distance sounds travel. No idea how it ended up there but not in the books

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Too many new pages for me to want to read. Just one point.

He is just standing there, not moving, trying to breathe as silently as possible.
Does that count as a stealth check? Nope. So no action has been taken.

Actually that is virtually the definition of stealth. You stop moving and try to be quiet (when you're in a position when you aren't clearly visible).

As annoying as we pretty much all find the rules in terms of timing and action economy, I cannot fault their definition of stealth. If you simply turn invisible and don't actively try to be quiet, you actually probably would be noticed by a nearby person who isn't trying to notice stuff. Now, the way I interpret the rules of the game most characters do not get to even use their passive perception unless they are doing the non-combat equivalent of spending their action making Wisdom (Perception) checks each round. "Passive" is a misnomer, since you have to be actively doing it.

So, outside of combat, if you turn invisible and no one is close to you and intentionally keeping alert for out of place things, they probably won't even get a chance to notice you.

Inside of combat, it is assumed everyone has their passive perception up by default (and doesn't take an action unless they want to roll an active perception check on top of that), so they are trying to be aware of everything going on around them, and would notice the breathing or other signs of an invisible but not hidden creature.

Summary: The rules actually do make sense that you would still need to actively hide when invisible, but action economy makes that a pain, and One With Shadows is barely useful in combat.

Also, I don't see a good reason that the invocation would work outside of combat but not inside, since combat rounds are a meta-concept, not an in-world thing. (Sure, I can make up a lame justification, but that's not a good reason.)

 

[Plaguescarred]

It's often overlooked as it isn't truely RaW but the official DM screen does have rules/suggestions for the distance sounds travel. No idea how it ended up there but not in the books

Cool i must have overlook it what does it say?

 

[ryan92084]

Cool i must have overlook it what does it say?

I forgot it gives some visibility guidelines too

Audible distance
Trying to be quiet 2d6 x5 feet
Normal noise level 2d6 x10 feet
Very loud 2d6 x50 feet

Visibility Outdoors
Clear day, no obstructions 2 miles
Rain 1 mile
Fog 100-300 feet
From a height x20

 

[Plaguescarred]

I forgot it gives some visibility guidelines too

Audible distance
Trying to be quiet 2d6 x5 feet
Normal noise level 2d6 x10 feet
Very loud 2d6 x50 feet

Visibility Outdoors
Clear day, no obstructions 2 miles
Rain 1 mile
Fog 100-300 feet
From a height x20

Thanks for fletching them out for us

 

[Helldritch]

[MENTION=6698331]Sword[/MENTION]spirit
Please, don't simply use one sentence and assume I don't know what stealth is. I wrote that it wasn't a stealth check simply because the hardest part, not being seen, is already done. That is why I give not the player's stealth check as a DC but a base DC depending on what is going on around. There are many factors to consider when you do as I do, what type of enemy is it? How good is it at perception? Does it have blindsense? and many more.

One with shadow is not perfect. But it can be used in the right circumstances.

 

[The Savant]

Hi,

Interesting thread. I found a massive logical conflating of stealth, with hiding, and the Hide Action in combat.

Here's my take:

1) From the basic movement rules, a party can always use Stealth when moving half rate or less, and they meet the conditions for some level of obscurement. Dim light and darkness count as light and heavy obscurement
2) Hiding is a special condition that comes from a Stealth check. It has significance in Combat, but that's it. The DM normally determines when hiding can be attempted
3) Successfully hiding gives you the Hidden condition, which confers certain beneficial effects in Combat [attack with advantage, attacked with disadvantage]
4) The Hide Action is used in combat to try and gain the Hidden condition when such attempt would be difficult, which it will in most cases. The DM
can still bar you from the attempt if he deems it impossible i.e that stone column is too skinny for your body size to get behind in that bright light
5) Even if you can't gain the Hidden condition, Stealth can always be attempted as per point 1) above [otherwise you can't Stealth]
6) Invisibility clearly states you may always attempt to hide, regardless. It does not say "by using the Hide Action in combat." So not only can you use Stealth normally, you can gain the Hidden condition as per point 3)


So this is how the whole thing works IMHO:

The Warlock/Rogue agilely steps around the corner in combat into the moonlight glade away from his attackers. He Moves 15 feet. He takes a Bonus Dash of 15 feet. He then uses his Action to use One with Shadows to become invisible. He is in dim light so he meets the condition. The DM says, okay since you only moved 15 feet instead of 30 feet both times, you can now roll Stealth. I won't ask you to burn your Hide Action to do this, since you were moving slowly enough not to make noise with your heels. Secondly, since you went invisible, I can't bar you from trying to achieve the Hidden condition.

His hot pursuers run around the corner looking for him. They fail in their Perception checks. Note that if they were deaf they would automatically fail. Since they failed in these checks, the Warlock/Rogue now has the Hidden condition against all his pursuers, in addition to being Stealthy. If one of his pursuers runs past him out of his threatened area, he could nicely bury his shortsword in the opponent's back with Advantage as a Reaction. However if he took a Reaction he would be now visible. He decides that since he can't kill all of them in one shot, discretion is the better part of valour. Since he is unspotted in dim light, he could continue to Stealth away into the gloom.

Note that since the Warlock/Rogue had considerable movement running around the corner his opponents do not know specially which square he is in. Since they failed Perception checks, they can only attack random squares in their pursuit i.e. where exactly did he stop when they lost sight of him. If one of them had heard a foot scrape by making their Perception check he could probably attack the correct square, and he could tip his mates off to the same.

The point being, don't conflate the Hide Action as a necessity to being Stealthy. Normally in combat lighting in good, combatants have good line of sight to each other, and they are wary enough to be using active Perception. The DM is going to say to you, you can't use Stealth since everyone is watching you with good light even if you move slowly. So you say, we'll I run behind that large sarcophagus over there, breaking line of sight, and then sneak over the top and drop down on my opponent next round as he turns the corner to look for me. If I were the DM I would say okay, but you are going to have to use the Hide Action here and I allow you to roll a Stealth check, given you make your Athletics check for the climb and you have enough movement to get into position to drop on your opponent next round. If your opponent then fails his or her Perception against that Stealth, you now pick up the Hidden condition with its combat advantages. The very subtle point is the DM barred you from using Stealth in this combat, but you argued a method that allowed for the Hide Action to apply and the DM granted you the hide attempt. Since it was a valid attempt to hide, you got to attempt a Stealth roll when it would not normally be allowed.

The other thing I note about Ability Checks is many of them are made during the course of movement and combat. If you go whole hog on RAW, then every time someone does some sort of check, that would be a specific action i.e. "can everyone please pause the battle for two rounds, I have to make my Knowledge and Perception checks." That clearly is -not- RAI. If a door needs a DC15 strength check for the fighter to turn the knob, step through and cut the monster she smoothly does that in one round if she makes the check. Likewise for both Stealth and Perception combinations. I would suspect most DM's only require an action to be used if there is an allowed retry, or the check requires time, or particular attention i.e. an illusion requires a round and an Intelligence check action to focus on seeing through its deception.

ta, the Savant

 

[Sword of Spirit]

@The Savant

I like some of your reasoning, but I can't find any evidence that the Hide action only comes into play when hiding would be difficult. The rules specify that you use the Hide action to hide in combat, with no qualifications.

Also, while I kind of like your interpretation of invisibility specifically negating the need for the Hide action in order to make the check, I'm pretty sure that wasn't design intent.

 

[Eltab]

That invocation is something you have to set up ahead of time. You can't just -poof- out in the middle of combat and surprise your unexpecting foe on your next turn.

It might also be useful if it becomes important that you cast no shadow.