Pathfinder 2E Is It Time for PF2 "Essentials"?

[The-Magic-Sword]

I'm not disagreeing with the uncertainty of drawing conclusions about the Roll20 numbers. For example, my Roll20 PF2 game drew just as much attention as my 5e games did, whereas my 3.5 game and 4e games attracted less. Judging by the Roll20 numbers, I expected to get fewer player applications than a 5e game, but that wasn't the case.

But I want to dissuade you from drawing conclusions about enthusiast behavior and projecting those on the majority of the player base. Roll20 is completely disregarded by the PF2 userbase? That's massive hyperbole, especially since we know that Roll20 is considerably more popular than Fantasy Grounds or Foundry, particularly among the more casual players, since the barrier to entry for Roll20 is way lower. Way, way lower.

I said the community disregards it, which would be a significant depression of numbers in its own right, even if people weren't getting information from them. It also helps that even a lot of casual players have enthusiast GMs (or at least ones who go looking for advice in enthusiast spaces)

 

[Justice and Rule]

It also helps that even a lot of casual players have enthusiast GMs (or at least ones who go looking for advice in enthusiast spaces)

Yeah, this is me: My brother and I are definitely enthusiasts, while most of my players are more casual in what they use.

 

[Teemu]

Yes, I'm aware that the more casual crowd will eventually be swayed by the enthusiasts. That's why mentioned the opinion leaders, comprising the enthusiasts of the hobby. But it still is massive hyperbole to say that Roll20 is completely disregarded by the community. It's not. It's still the most popular VTT around, by a large margin. There will be Roll20 users wanting to play PF2, and since most players don't go searching for detailed answers as to which VTT is best for the game, they'll just search for PF2 games on Roll20. Again, don't overestimate the ratio of enthusiasts vs casual players -- it's really easy to do since we participate in the active community that discusses the hobby, so it becomes an echo chamber that doesn't represent the true scope of the userbase.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Yes, I'm aware that the more casual crowd will eventually be swayed by the enthusiasts. That's why mentioned the opinion leaders, comprising the enthusiasts of the hobby. But it still is massive hyperbole to say that Roll20 is completely disregarded by the community. It's not. It's still the most popular VTT around, by a large margin. There will be Roll20 users wanting to play PF2, and since most players don't go searching for detailed answers as to which VTT is best for the game, they'll just search for PF2 games on Roll20. Again, don't overestimate the ratio of enthusiasts vs casual players -- it's really easy to do since we participate in the active community that discusses the hobby, so it becomes an echo chamber that doesn't represent the true scope of the userbase.

I think the roll 20 crowd is still an enthusiast crowd in its own right. The casuals were playing with a group of players irl and either suspended their gaming or moved to whatever platform was recommended when they Google their system to try and play online during the pandemic.

 

[Teemu]

I think the roll 20 crowd is still an enthusiast crowd in its own right. The casuals were playing with a group of players irl and either suspended their gaming or moved to whatever platform was recommended when they Google their system to try and play online during the pandemic.

Not my experience at all. At this point I’ve played with at least a couple of dozen different players long term on Roll20, and another couple of dozen or so short term, and only a minority of those folks could be described as enthusiasts.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Not my experience at all. At this point I’ve played with at least a couple of dozen different players long term on Roll20, and another couple of dozen or so short term, and only a minority of those folks could be described as enthusiasts.

Maybe, though I would argue Pathfinder 2E people are probably less casual and more enthusiast. I mean, I think Paizo's crowd in general are less casual and more enthusiast because that's how their release schedule and games come off.

As it stands, Roll20 is still the big dog out there, simply for being the free-to-play option. It's worth noting that the PF2 community is really big on promoting Foundry, but ultimately we're the proverbial blind men feeling the elephant here.

 

[Thomas Shey]

As it stands, Roll20 is still the big dog out there, simply for being the free-to-play option.

The comparatively easy free-to-play option. Maptool is free, also.

 

[GreyLord]

Doesn't matter, the enthusiast crowd has popularized it enough that Foundry is all the shows up when you Google for a Pathfinder 2e VTT. Casuals Def look into what people are saying about different choices, so they're finding the foundry web page and the reddit discussions about roll 20.

Reddit is also pretty casual, especially when we're talking about a game like Pathfinder.

The problem with this is there is NO WAY most casuals are simply going to load this app that shows up on Google for no other reason than it's what some enthusiasts suggest.

Sure, the hard core players may be using it, but for most casuals putting foundry on has a multitude of problems.

#1 - Many who play online play multiple RPGs. If another app supports multiple versions in a much easier and cheaper way, they are going to that app over one they have to install/pay more for/etc.

#2 - When I look up playing Pathfinder RPG over the internet, the first result is NOT Foundry, it is a polygon article about doing it. The first Virtual program that shows up is roll20, than it is d20pro from what google seems to show me. Foundry only shows up first if you hit VTT in that. Then, when clicking on the link it brings me to a Pathfinder 1 link. I don't want PF1, it was PF2. I click on systems and modules, and it just brings me information on it, but not on PF2. It seems you literally have to subscribe to get access to know what they actually will support!

It's too difficult to find what I'm looking for...as a "dirty casual" as people seem to call those like me.

#3 - Foundry seems a tad more complex in how they portray themselves. It is hard to figure out where or what to find to play PF2e.

#4 - My experience with PF2e (mostly via the BB) was online. We did NOT use foundry, and if we had been asked we would never have even given PF2e a try. We actually did not use Roll20 either, we used a chat system with cameras to see ourselves and photos. I don't think Foundry is attracting a majority of the PF audience (I may be wrong), but then, there are MANY ways to play online.

But that's also the systems greatest strength, some gamers like having a lot of decision points and tactical choices. If you read the subreddit threads on why people left 5e in the first place, you see a lot of people actually value this kind of depth. Raw Complexity isn't a benefit, but the depth that can only be achieved by a little complexity used efficiently, as it is in Pathfinder 2e, is very desirable.

Depth is good, and there is a lot about PF2e to like. I like that fighters hit better than other classes. That Rogues have a ton of skills comparatively. That each class actually seems more representative of it's class than they do in 5e.

There ARE factors that turned our group off of PF2e though. Failure to recognize those factors probably hold PF2e from being more successful than it could be.

While Amazon or Roll20 probably should not be the ONLY metrics on how well PF2e is doing, and should be used with other metrics for a better picture, they ARE metrics. The do indicate that on some level PF2e is not selling as well as other things are. Amazon is a HUGE marketplace these days for physical goods (though PDFs sales would need to be seen otherwise) and to simply discount it without offering any other metric would seem to be trying to ignore what the numbers are.

That doesn't mean that PF2e is dying or doing terribly. Compared to 5e it is obviously not doing as well, but how about other RPGs?

A quick look (at this exact moment that I looked, meaning it could change when others look) the PF2e core rulebook is #7061 in books, while the Call of Cthulhu Core book is #18,988.

As I said, I think Amazon can indicate how well an RPG is doing in sales comparatively to other RPGs. Discounting it as a metric seems disingenuous.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

The problem with this is there is NO WAY most casuals are simply going to load this app that shows up on Google for no other reason than it's what some enthusiasts suggest.

Sure, the hard core players may be using it, but for most casuals putting foundry on has a multitude of problems.

#1 - Many who play online play multiple RPGs. If another app supports multiple versions in a much easier and cheaper way, they are going to that app over one they have to install/pay more for/etc.

#2 - When I look up playing Pathfinder RPG over the internet, the first result is NOT Foundry, it is a polygon article about doing it. The first Virtual program that shows up is roll20, than it is d20pro from what google seems to show me. Foundry only shows up first if you hit VTT in that. Then, when clicking on the link it brings me to a Pathfinder 1 link. I don't want PF1, it was PF2. I click on systems and modules, and it just brings me information on it, but not on PF2. It seems you literally have to subscribe to get access to know what they actually will support!

It's too difficult to find what I'm looking for...as a "dirty casual" as people seem to call those like me.

#3 - Foundry seems a tad more complex in how they portray themselves. It is hard to figure out where or what to find to play PF2e.

#4 - My experience with PF2e (mostly via the BB) was online. We did NOT use foundry, and if we had been asked we would never have even given PF2e a try. We actually did not use Roll20 either, we used a chat system with cameras to see ourselves and photos. I don't think Foundry is attracting a majority of the PF audience (I may be wrong), but then, there are MANY ways to play online.



Depth is good, and there is a lot about PF2e to like. I like that fighters hit better than other classes. That Rogues have a ton of skills comparatively. That each class actually seems more representative of it's class than they do in 5e.

There ARE factors that turned our group off of PF2e though. Failure to recognize those factors probably hold PF2e from being more successful than it could be.

While Amazon or Roll20 probably should not be the ONLY metrics on how well PF2e is doing, and should be used with other metrics for a better picture, they ARE metrics. The do indicate that on some level PF2e is not selling as well as other things are. Amazon is a HUGE marketplace these days for physical goods (though PDFs sales would need to be seen otherwise) and to simply discount it without offering any other metric would seem to be trying to ignore what the numbers are.

That doesn't mean that PF2e is dying or doing terribly. Compared to 5e it is obviously not doing as well, but how about other RPGs?

A quick look (at this exact moment that I looked, meaning it could change when others look) the PF2e core rulebook is #7061 in books, while the Call of Cthulhu Core book is #18,988.

As I said, I think Amazon can indicate how well an RPG is doing in sales comparatively to other RPGs. Discounting it as a metric seems disingenuous.

You aren't casual if you're posting on enworld, as for the rest I'm going to leave it alone because we have no way to know definitively whether any of the claims we're making about relative VTT use is accurate, people have been warned about the issues with their data.

 

[dave2008]

You aren't casual if you're posting on enworld, as for the rest I'm going to leave it alone because we have no way to know definitively whether any of the claims we're making about relative VTT use is accurate, people have been warned about the issues with their data.

Just to be clear, we have no way of knowing if your claims are accurate either. Yet your making them too (IIRC).

EDIT: Just pointing out we all do it.

The fact is, we simply don't know. We don't have access to the information. It is all guess work.