Pathfinder 2E Is It Time for PF2 "Essentials"?

Just to be clear, we have no way of know if your claims are accurate either. Yet your making them too (IIRC). The fact is, we simply don't know. We don't have access to the information. It is all guess work.
Which is why the inclusive “we” was used and highlights as to why the premise of this post was flawed when it cites falling VTT market share as a need for pathfinder essentials.
We know that generally as figures, they can’t gauge actual popularity or use without sparking the pages long threads they have done before reaching this inevitable conclusion. It happens so often alas.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Which is why the inclusive “we” was used and highlights as to why the premise of this post was flawed when it cites falling VTT market share as a need for pathfinder essentials.
Personally I think the OP was less about a "need" for a change in PF2 and more about the OP's "desire" for a change in PF2.

We like to justify our desires with some shred of evidence if we can. Its natural.

I also think it is an interesting discussion/idea, regardless of the "need" for it. Frankly, I would be more interested in an "Essentials" version of PF2 than the current version. If it was 99-100% backward compatible (and I believe it could be) that could serve more people.
 

All right, to get back to @Retreater original premiss, what would an "Essentials" PF2 look like? Or more importantly (to me), what would I want to see?

  1. Streamline rules and less of them: From what I hear, this is pretty well taken care of in the beginner's box. So I think we already have that checked (I just want all the change in one book).
  2. A reduction of feats. To keep this balanced what I am thinking is combining feats into larger feats. So instead of a fighter & skill feat at lvl 2 & 4; you get a fighter feat (a combined feat) at lvl 2 and a skill feat (a combined feat) at level 4, or something similar. I might get rid of ancestery feats all together (maybe keep one, and make most of these to your initial ancestry/sub ancestry, or background choice. Ideally I would like half as many feat choices max.
  3. Simplified classes. I want mean is less reliance on tactical choices. My players are not tactically minded and they just want simple mechanics. Not sure how to do this one.
  4. Remove the martial reliance on striking runes (this may not be backward compatible). I am think of how "basic" attacks progressed in damage as you leveled up. I think this is in the GMG maybe? But I would prefer it was backed in.
  5. I would like to get rid of the +1/level. I know this is in the GMG, but I would like it to be the default and monsters already calculated this way. I realize this is not backwards compatible, but this is my wishlist.
 

Just to be clear, we have no way of knowing if your claims are accurate either. Yet your making them too (IIRC). ;)

EDIT: Just pointing out we all do it.

The fact is, we simply don't know. We don't have access to the information. It is all guess work.
Yup, the 'we' was intentional, but I do feel confident my claims aren't any worse than the ones they were in response to, which was my only real point, that the data was unreliable.
 


All right, to get back to @Retreater original premiss, what would an "Essentials" PF2 look like? Or more importantly (to me), what would I want to see?

  1. Streamline rules and less of them: From what I hear, this is pretty well taken care of in the beginner's box. So I think we already have that checked (I just want all the change in one book).
  2. A reduction of feats. To keep this balanced what I am thinking is combining feats into larger feats. So instead of a fighter & skill feat at lvl 2 & 4; you get a fighter feat (a combined feat) at lvl 2 and a skill feat (a combined feat) at level 4, or something similar. I might get rid of ancestery feats all together (maybe keep one, and make most of these to your initial ancestry/sub ancestry, or background choice. Ideally I would like half as many feat choices max.
  3. Simplified classes. I want mean is less reliance on tactical choices. My players are not tactically minded and they just want simple mechanics. Not sure how to do this one.
  4. Remove the martial reliance on striking runes (this may not be backward compatible). I am think of how "basic" attacks progressed in damage as you leveled up. I think this is in the GMG maybe? But I would prefer it was backed in.
  5. I would like to get rid of the +1/level. I know this is in the GMG, but I would like it to be the default and monsters already calculated this way. I realize this is not backwards compatible, but this is my wishlist.
This sounds a lot like 5e. I think Paizo would be making a big mistake trying to sell 5e v2. We have 5e already, we don’t need another one.
 

This sounds a lot like 5e. I think Paizo would be making a big mistake trying to sell 5e v2. We have 5e already, we don’t need another one.
I'm think something in-between, which I think there is a market for. To be clear, I am not saying to stop selling PF2, I am just requesting a "basic" version too. I know it will not happen, just dreaming :)

There are two options for this idea: I think they could do an "Essentials" which is just simplified classes (and the stripped down rules from the beginner's box). It would be completely compatible with PF2 (just like the beginner's box and Essentials was for 4e). This could be done without even calling it something different. It is just new classes and the rules presented differently. I think that could bring more people in without alienating all those you love traditional PF2.

The other option is a bit more radical, which I suggested above, because that is what I want. If that is more similar to 5e, well that is a good thing in my book. I like the idea of combining the best parts of the 2 systems, that would be close to ideal for me. But that is more than an "Essentials," it is more like a PF2.5e
 

All right, to get back to @Retreater original premiss, what would an "Essentials" PF2 look like? Or more importantly (to me), what would I want to see?

  1. Streamline rules and less of them: From what I hear, this is pretty well taken care of in the beginner's box. So I think we already have that checked (I just want all the change in one book).
  2. A reduction of feats. To keep this balanced what I am thinking is combining feats into larger feats. So instead of a fighter & skill feat at lvl 2 & 4; you get a fighter feat (a combined feat) at lvl 2 and a skill feat (a combined feat) at level 4, or something similar. I might get rid of ancestery feats all together (maybe keep one, and make most of these to your initial ancestry/sub ancestry, or background choice. Ideally I would like half as many feat choices max.
  3. Simplified classes. I want mean is less reliance on tactical choices. My players are not tactically minded and they just want simple mechanics. Not sure how to do this one.
  4. Remove the martial reliance on striking runes (this may not be backward compatible). I am think of how "basic" attacks progressed in damage as you leveled up. I think this is in the GMG maybe? But I would prefer it was backed in.
  5. I would like to get rid of the +1/level. I know this is in the GMG, but I would like it to be the default and monsters already calculated this way. I realize this is not backwards compatible, but this is my wishlist.
As for number 3 the easiest way to handle it is actually to bump the players up a level, I think that could be mentioned in Adventure Paths as an option for GMs explicitly, like 'hey if your players are having trouble and its hurting the fun, don't hesitate to give them an extra level'

actually, side quests that could give opportunities to outpace the book's intended level progression by a bit would be an organic means of providing this as well, if we don't want it to just be a sidebar, but really I'd apply a sidebar that mentions the possibility.

Sadly, I feel like some of these other elements actually damage what make Pathfinder 2e desirable at all, like reductions in player choices. That would start giving it some of the flaws of OSR games and the like, which my players are pretty explicitly against doing as a 'main' thing (though they'd be happy to try a little DCC on the side, which should be fun.)

Less rules is also potentially an issue in that some people already view it (it's in Morrus's review for Enworld, if i'm remembering correctly) as being as simple as 5e, and honestly, it mostly is-- it's also an issue because you might be falling int 5e's pitfalls of not having real support for exploration and downtime.

I do kind of wish ABP was the default (or really, that items as a to-hit increase wasn't really a thing in the first place) but I understand that was a matter of player feedback, and it thankfully isn't hard to change.
 

  1. I would like to get rid of the +1/level. I know this is in the GMG, but I would like it to be the default and monsters already calculated this way. I realize this is not backwards compatible, but this is my wishlist.
If Paizo actively supported proficiency without level (as the GMG variant rule is called) by publishing Bestiaries with everything (p)recalculated, that would indeed be awesome!

A more realistic approach would be asking Nethys and Easytools (et al) to implement a checkbox for a global setting (somewhat like you can choose light or dark skin here on Enworld - a setting that affects all pages but otherwise changes nothing), instantly recalculating all the relevant monster info on their web pages.
 

This sounds a lot like 5e. I think Paizo would be making a big mistake trying to sell 5e v2. We have 5e already, we don’t need another one.
No it doesn't.

Wishing for a PF2 without the absolute mountain of clutter it currently comes loaded with is still well short of something like 5E.
 

Remove ads

Top