Is it time to put the "A" back before D&D?

[Umbran]

This is kind of like the chicken and egg dilema, isn't it? Do products fracture the market or does the market fracture on its own and products are put out to cater to the fragments that aren't happy with the status quo?

I don't think any designers outside WotC (and maybe even inside) have enough market information to create games to knowingly cater to things. Designers are in a constant state of hoping they've made the thing people want, rather than knowing.

I think of "market fracturing" as a business phenomenon. The market isn't fractured until you actually have two markets that don't really interact much. A new product really can cause a fracture, because at least some portion of the players will go to a new thing merely because it is new, rather than because of any real dissatisfaction with the old.

 

[Razz]

Perhaps I'm reading too much into this, and it really is a non-issue. I've just noticed that in the past year to two, the books have largely shifted focus. We've got new, lengthier monster, class, prestige class, spell, and magic item formats. The books contain more sample NPCs, sample lairs, sample encounters, predesigned treasure troves, and so on than they did before. They also contain less of all the items listed above as a result of this process.

Take for example the Player's Handbook II. I love this book. However, I'm only using about 4 of the chapters of material (classes, feats, spells, retraining). With the MMIV, I will not be using the MM races with class levels tacked on, the sample encounters, the predesigned treasures, etc.

I don't believe these books should cater to me or my style, but they have definitely changed. Some view the change for the better, some for the worse, but the change is most certainly there.

Regarding the possibility that most ground has been covered and we are getting experimental products as a result of that, I can agree to some extent. Books like Magic of Incarnum, Tome of Magic, and Weapons of Legacy fit the bill. But on the other hand, there are easily enough monsters, feats, spells, and magic items to fill several more books on each topic alone.

Many folks have theorizied that the books are shifting focus to help new people enter the game. This seems like strange timing, if you believe that 4E is right around the corner. Wouldn't the launch of a new edition be the best time to attract new gamers, not when the current edition is waning?

I agree with you wholeheartedly about the situation with D&D now. I noticed the shift in focus from when Races of Destiny was released and onward. I used to buy EVERY WotC book (well the general and FR books that is) and it's been getting so bad now that I am refusing to buy 2 books, Mysteries of the Moonsea and Monster Manual 4.

The shift in focus is leaning more and more towards "We'll do the work and imagination for you, we'll make EVERYTHING much much easier for you, and we'll fill our books with tons of inspiration and take away the tools...because you won't need the tools since we'll do the building for you, but you'll still have to apply it".

Originally it was "Here are the tools, if you want these tools to work with then buy our book, if you don't then don't buy it, we have a different set coming next month."

It's quite sad, I hope this is only a one year thing with them, like they're testing the waters with something. Wrong year to do it, though.

Now me, and people like me, are feeling alienated with the new focus. I think an AD&D 3E would be better, so people such as myself and others, and even the veterans (cause I side mostly with them) can have their game and the newbs theirs.

 

[Jdvn1]

I wonder if it would be feasible at some point to once again offer two different versions of the game, one for the users who feel very comfortable (and have the time) to stat out everything on their own and use a multitude of rules, and another for those who'd prefer to have the work done for them so they can save time and focus on less mechanical details of the campaign.

Do you think this is a realistic possiblity?

I thought D&D was already "A" and that for a more basic version of the game you went to... well, D&D Basic Kit.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

If we're going to go down that dark path, let's also consider doing what WotC did with its Magic cards. They come in three levels: Basic, Intermediate, and Expert (or something like that).

Sounds like familiar red, blue, and green boxed sets I once knew fondly.

I think WotC stole that from TSR.

 

[Nomad4life]

I wonder if it would be feasible at some point to once again offer two different versions of the game, one for the users who feel very comfortable (and have the time) to stat out everything on their own and use a multitude of rules, and another for those who'd prefer to have the work done for them so they can save time and focus on less mechanical details of the campaign.

I would argue that this has already happened.

Those that still have the time, patience, and money to mess with 3.X are still doing so.

Those that need “more for less” have already moved on to C&C, True20, and other lite systems.

So I guess what I’m saying is that it’s too late for WoTC to jump on that wagon. And maybe that’s best for everyone?

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I agree with you wholeheartedly about the situation with D&D now. I noticed the shift in focus from when Races of Destiny was released and onward. I used to buy EVERY WotC book (well the general and FR books that is) and it's been getting so bad now that I am refusing to buy 2 books, Mysteries of the Moonsea and Monster Manual 4.

I agree that there seemed to be a shift in focus. The "Races" books, though, should be seen as something different. I almost passed them up because I figured they'd be too "fluff" heavy for my taste. I collect statblocks, though, and I dug the "generic" groups and NPCs in the back of the "Races" books, as well as the sample NPCs. Yeah, I already have tons of statblocks, but I like having even more.

The shift in focus is leaning more and more towards "We'll do the work and imagination for you, we'll make EVERYTHING much much easier for you, and we'll fill our books with tons of inspiration and take away the tools...because you won't need the tools since we'll do the building for you, but you'll still have to apply it".

Originally it was "Here are the tools, if you want these tools to work with then buy our book, if you don't then don't buy it, we have a different set coming next month."

Personally, I don't like when the pendulum swings too far in either direction. On one hand, I like crunch a lot more than fluff (my favorite 3e book besides the core is Unearthed Arcana, for example), but I also like having a bit of context for the crunch; that is, I like seeing what the game designer had in mind for what he designed.

It's quite sad, I hope this is only a one year thing with them, like they're testing the waters with something. Wrong year to do it, though.

Now me, and people like me, are feeling alienated with the new focus. I think an AD&D 3E would be better, so people such as myself and others, and even the veterans (cause I side mostly with them) can have their game and the newbs theirs.

Well, I'd have to say I'm a veteran - 26+ years since I first started playing D&D. I don't feel alienated. It just seems that the pendulum is swinging a bit further towards the end of the spectrum I'm not all that enthused by. It'll swing back eventually. It always does.

 

[Hussar]

No, I don't. I see your point, but I don't think such a differentiation would help with the schism you see. What would help, I feel, is if WotC would develop a truly comprehensive software package that did most of the heavy lifting for players. Not just a character generator. I mean a package that could do all the calculating, from character creation to running combat, requiring a minimum of effort on the part of the players, and would also contain all the rules to the game for easy reference (and could be upgraded with newer releases). It could be either program that one would run on a computer, or that would be part of a dedicated device that is sold on its own. This device could be connected to those of the other players, including the DM, so as to make combats run quickly and smoothly and keep track of all that stuff that often bedevils players and DMs. Those who like all the number crunching could simply use the books alone or with some of the less comprehensive programs available now.

QFT.

If there was a true DM's Suite and Player's Suite out there, I'd buy it in a second.

Why the heck can't we have a decent software package?

As far as Razz's point, well, I'm a pretty experienced gamer as well and I'm pretty happy with the new format. Sorry, I'm not 15 anymore and I can't spend umpteen hours on my game like I used to. Being able to take things straight out of a particular book and use them in my game unmodified is the number ONE reason for my purchase.

You can have all the fantastic new ideas in the world, but, if it requires me to spend the next several dozen hours working it into my game, I'm not interested.

 

[Melan]

It is my opinion that there is a huuuge difference between market fragmentation as in "one lighter D&D line and one rules-heavy D&D line", and market fragmentation as in "six or more worlds, dozens of mutually incompatible rule-systems and super-niche products". Although the argument is often brought forth, I don't see the relevance of TSR's downfall here - their fragmentation wasn't anything like what is being suggested in the OP. Plus it is not like White Wolf suffers from fragmenting the World of Darkness into Vampire, Werewolf and Mage lines either - there is overlap between their fandoms, but serving different player niches also produces a lot of synergy.

That doesn't mean a well-written and (moderately) supported light D&D ruleset is likely. Neither the design culture nor the business direction of WotC point in its direction. If you need a light game, go play Castles&Crusades, True20 or something.

 

[Melan]

Why the heck can't we have a decent software package?

Software rights still in the possession of Infogrames/Atari?

 

[Piratecat]

In my opinion, WotC partially fractured the market when they released 3.5. One of the problems comes in that they made it very difficult for a player to master the rules changes between 3e and 3.5; it ran contrary to a design philosophy of 3e, which was 'if you're going to change something, don't change it in some subtle way that's hard to remember.'

While a lot of folks will make the evil eye at me for saying so, the eventual appearance of a well-designed 4e will help consolidate players again.