Is my rogue not useful in this configuration?

[Retreater]

(Cross posted on Paizo's forums.)

My group is playing an adventure path (Council of Thieves) which seems to be thwarting my plans to sneak attack more often than not. To add insult to injury most of my rogue niche abilities (disable, stealth) can be done just as well or better than by other characters.

In an attempt to diversify I've taken a couple of levels in bard. It seems that I'm mostly just running around with a cure wand nowadays.

We're 5-6th level. We have a diviner, barbarian, cleric (I'm serving as auxillary healing when her player misses), and melee ranger.

What do you think will be useful to the party?

 

[pawsplay]

Don't niche yourself. You're a bloody rogue! You can sneak, tumble, and detect, and on top of that, fight and sneak attack, too. Get some wands, and forget this CLW rubbish. See how well enemy rogues fare against hold person, or grease. Tired of being denied sneak attack? Get some scrolls of mirror image and turn the tables.

True story: I was in a party in 3.0 that took down a way tough blue dragon. My bard was the lone survivor, dealing a killing blow with his longsword while under mirror image.

 

[concerro]

(Cross posted on Paizo's forums.)

My group is playing an adventure path (Council of Thieves) which seems to be thwarting my plans to sneak attack more often than not. To add insult to injury most of my rogue niche abilities (disable, stealth) can be done just as well or better than by other characters.

In an attempt to diversify I've taken a couple of levels in bard. It seems that I'm mostly just running around with a cure wand nowadays.

We're 5-6th level. We have a diviner, barbarian, cleric (I'm serving as auxillary healing when her player misses), and melee ranger.

What do you think will be useful to the party?

How is the party disabling better than you? Other than a ranger or monk not to many people should be out stealthing you either. As for the sneak attack that will probably require teamwork from your fellow players. I see no reason why a flank is not getting setup.

 

[Retreater]

I see no reason why a flank is not getting setup.

Examples of recent combats include swarms, elementals, incorporeal undead, creatures that cannot be flanked, etc. The module design is neutering the idea of sneak attacking.

The wizard's stealth is the same as mine. He has an 18 Dex, max ranks in Stealth, and a familiar bonus to stealth. Likewise his disable device is the same. He constantly throws it in my face that he's as good a rogue as my character, and is a wizard on top of it.

 

[Dingo333]

at level 5 and assuming Dex 18 and max your Disable device should be +15-16 depending on tools

The best a wizard could do at same level is +10-11

And, only a rouge (or variant ranger) can disable device on magic traps

At level 5 and assuming Dex 18 and max your stealth should be +12

The best a wizard could do at the same level is +12 and that will drop by 3 when he gets an actually useful familiar. True if he just casts Vanish all the time, he may beat you with the +20 from the spell

At level 5 and assuming Wis 12 and max, your perception to even spot the traps should be +11

A wizard with the same wis would have +6

Unless the wizard has sunk a lot of Skill Focus feats in, you should be beating him on all 3 of these skills

On top of that, he has used 3 of his 6-7 skills to compete with you where as you still have 7+ more skills that if the wizard tried to beat you in, he could not even get them

On thing I forgot, is there is a constant enemy that is sneak attack able

Lets see the wizard survive a Coup de grace with a great axe or scythe (3d12+3d6 or 8d4+3d6)
If i was the DM, I would be perfectly fine with you killing a person who was continually taunting you
Course I would also alter the encounters a little to tailor it to the party (a chance to shine every now and then)

 

[concerro]

Examples of recent combats include swarms, elementals, incorporeal undead, creatures that cannot be flanked, etc. The module design is neutering the idea of sneak attacking.

The wizard's stealth is the same as mine. He has an 18 Dex, max ranks in Stealth, and a familiar bonus to stealth. Likewise his disable device is the same. He constantly throws it in my face that he's as good a rogue as my character, and is a wizard on top of it.

I have played the module up to book 5. Things do get better for you as a rogue. A wizard can not use disable to device to disarm magical traps so anything(traps) that has a DC above 20 he is still useless for it.

You also get half the rogue class bonus to finding and disabling traps. If he thinks he is as good at rogue things then allow him to spot ahead. Your AC should be above his, and he won't always be buffed.
The only thing I see him doing as well as you is stealth, but since he is not going to be scouting I don't think that matter.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

What sources are allowed? If 3E stuff is, there's a lot of options to help you out. If not... IMO, Pathfinder wasn't kind to Rogues...sorry.

 

[EUBanana]

How are you being thwarted exactly?

I think the sniper rogue is pretty good, especially when you get the enhanced sniping advanced rogue ability at level 10. You can just sneak attack constantly with surprise attack, and still be almost impossible to spot. Especially with a cloak of elvenkind/shadow armour, which is cheap as chips, a few thousand gp.

Then theres fast stealth, so you can be stealthing 100% of the time, if you're getting caught out for some reason.

Improved feint is good for melee rogues. Gang up can be too.

Lunge can be good when you qualify for it, so you can lunge over a fighters head if you tend to be fighting in corridors a lot.

It kinda depends on what situations you are finding yourself regularly in.

 

[Retreater]

Examples of my rogue's ineffectiveness:

1) Sneak attack and damage potential
Wielding a rapier with weapon finesse, my rogue attempts to tumble into flanking position using his maxed out ranks in acrobatics. If he is unable to flank, he attempts to feint with his Improve Feint feat and maxed ranks in bluff.

I do know how to get sneak attacks when the opportunity presents itself. Unfortunately, that doesn't help me when the DM/module designer is regularly throwing opponents at me who a) can't be flanked; b) are very difficult to feint due to being mindless; and c) are immune to precision damage.

Even if I hit with sneak attacks every round (which is next to impossible) in every combat (again, not going to happen), I am still getting left in the dust by the barbarian and ranger. It's not the end of the world, and there are other things that my character can do...

2) Trapfinding and avoidance
Module designers seem to place one or two "big nasty traps" in an adventure. This is probably to address the fact that not every party has a rogue and to make their adventures appeal to the largest number of groups. This means that a rogue is given - at best - one or two chances to really shine in an adventure. However, if you miss a die roll, it all comes crashing down, and you're a failure. Compare that to the fighter who misses with an attack: He swings again the next round.

So far in this adventure series, the traps have been weak - such as a poison needle. In this case it would be better to have brought a second cleric to cast Lesser Restoration (plus lots of healing) instead of a rogue to get past one CR 1 trap. This is akin to bringing a barbarian on an investigative mission in which - during the entire module - he has to fight a single orc.

Unless there are nasty traps in an adventure, it seems that it might be better for my group just to walk through them and hope for the best than to count on my rogue to get past them.

3) Roleplaying
Silly me: I invested ranks in roleplaying skills and ability points into a decent Charisma. Instead, the DM prefers to "roleplay" these types of interactions - which is fine - but it means that the Cha 8 Wizard is just as effective in roleplaying encounters as my Cha 16 Rogue/Bard with maxed ranks in Diplomacy, Bluff, and Perform (acting).

 

[EUBanana]

It sounds as if the problem is largely with the GM then unfortunately, or the module design (but its not like a GM couldn't add in a few more not-so-immune-to-precision-damage baddies even if the module didn't have them).

1) is the equivalent of using dead magic or highly spell resistant creatures all the time, or like in the old Planescape setting where half the time magic just didn't work. That sort of thing gets old fast if you're playing a caster.

and 3), well, that is quite a difficult thing to balance as a GM. On the one hand you want people to RP, but on the other hand these skills must, IMHO, be used. It is kind of a pet peeve of mine, to be honest.

Stuff like bluff and diplomacy have specific rules defined effects. Diplomacy is like a nonmagical charm person after all. If the GM is the sort that would treat charm person differently from a sufficiently good diplomacy roll, even though the outcome of both abilities is identical, then you have an issue with the GM selectively using some abilities but not others, to your detriment.

Unfortunately that sort of thing is all too common with rogues, especially, I have found. GMs are much more happy to let magic do what the book says then they are about letting rogues do what the book says.