D&D 5E Is Neil Gaiman Wrong?

[Maxperson]

Why not talk about Superman or the Hulk? They're superheroes, are they not? It's an incredibly broad spectrum.

They are superheroes, but when you're listing them as proof that PCs aren't superheroes, they become irrelevant as they are only the rare elite, rather than the much more common, much weaker superhero.

I did include Hawkeye and Black Widow (along with Captain America) as examples of the power level that PCs could achieve back a few posts. I just think the top tier members of the Avengers are far more powerful than any individual PC could ever be. They're certainly far, far stronger.

Thor and the Hulk perhaps. Not Ironman. A high level wizard or other pure caster would wreck him. His just a normal Joe underneath that armor, so his saves would be low. Certain spells such wish would simply cause the armor to cease to exist and he'd be as easy as a commoner after that.

But this is a pointless argument. Might as well discuss whether Batman could defeat Superman. Well, except that answer is obvious.

According to the comics, Batman wins that one. He's taken down Superman something like 5 times now.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Umm ... yes? Are the PCs exceptional? Sure. Are they beyond what most people can imagine? Absolutely. Then again I can't imagine running as fast as Usain Bolt. Some gymnasts do things that to me seem physically impossible. I have no concept of how someone could deadlift over a thousand pounds but the record is 500 kg. PCs can go beyond even that at level 20, but in most cases it's because of magic or supernatural abilities (i.e. barbarian's ancestral spirits, monk's ki and so on).

Then there's superhero characters such as Superman that are ludicrously overpowered depending on the writer and version. There are versions of him extinguishing suns and towing around entire planets. Some superheroes are literally gods, or may as well be.

In my experience level 20 PCs are not that powerful. They are as powerful as some superheroes, I gave my examples.

But you know what? I'm done. This is a silly argument about perspectives and opinions about imaginary characters.

Okay man, it’s just...that’s superhuman. Like...they don’t have to all be able to move planets (and if that was a fantasy genre thing to do high level PCs would be able to move planets) to be superhuman.

It just seems like a weird position to insist on when one could just concede that they’re superhuman and add a caveat that they aren’t as powerful as XYZ characters that are also superhuman...

I just wanted to understand what logic could lead to the conclusion that someone that can run up the side of a waterfall and doesn’t age anymore is somehow not superhuman.

 

[Oofta]

They are superheroes, but when you're listing them as proof that PCs aren't superheroes, they become irrelevant as they are only the rare elite, rather than the much more common, much weaker superhero.



Thor and the Hulk perhaps. Not Ironman. A high level wizard or other pure caster would wreck him. His just a normal Joe underneath that armor, so his saves would be low. Certain spells such wish would simply cause the armor to cease to exist and he'd be as easy as a commoner after that.


According to the comics, Batman wins that one. He's taken down Superman something like 5 times now.

Only because Batman has invulnerable plot armor. Superman should be able to use his heat vision from orbit to take him out.

 

[Maxperson]

Umm ... yes? Are the PCs exceptional? Sure. Are they beyond what most people can imagine? Absolutely. Then again I can't imagine running as fast as Usain Bolt. Some gymnasts do things that to me seem physically impossible. I have no concept of how someone could deadlift over a thousand pounds but the record is 500 kg. PCs can go beyond even that at level 20, but in most cases it's because of magic or supernatural abilities (i.e. barbarian's ancestral spirits, monk's ki and so on).

They can go beyond that at level 1. Every spellcaster is automatically superhuman, as no normal human can cast spells. Even some of the physical classes go beyond that at low levels. 6th level Barbarians can see 1 mile as if it were normal vision and gain the senses of a wolf. A 4th level Monk can just slow down the speed at which he falls. And at 3rd level just punch someone and knock them 15 feet away. Become immune to poison and disease by 10th level.

In my experience level 20 PCs are not that powerful. They are as powerful as some superheroes, I gave my examples.

Superman is vulnerable to magic, so a spellcaster would wreck him.

 

[Flamestrike]

The claim (using BOLD) that "DnD" must be played in a particular style. Your style.

And, I would note, that you didn't even both stating 5e. Nope. All "DnD." All editions. All rules.

I didnt make that claim. I didnt tell you how to play the game. How you play the game is your businesses.

I was telling you that DnD as written is a game where the expectation (as reflected in the rules) is that once players hit T3-4 they are literal superheroes. Who can fly, travel to other realities, survive falling from skyscrapers and swimming in magma, stand toe to toe with Demon Lords, Demi-Gods and reality altering immortal mind controlling undead monstrosities, stop time, ask for (and recieve) literal divine intervention and so forth.

You cant alter that reality and expectation unless you heavily gut the system of rules, implement house rules galore or simply stop your campaigns at T1-2.

That is the expectation (literally written in the CRB under tiers of play, and demonstrable by the sorts of feats a high level PC can pull off that can be observed by simply reading high level class features).

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I didnt make that claim.

(etc.)

Counterpoints-
1. No.
2. If I haven’t agreed with you by now, I’m certainly not going to now.
3. My usually expectation when I have been moderated on a thread is to stop arguing.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

If it's not a horror story the moster always has got a weak point to be defeated by the hero.

Dragonslayer - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Princess and dragon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Lackofname]

I think it's a matter of size.

A mouse armed with a sword the size of a q-tip could puncture one of your arteries, and you'd have a good chance to die. That said, the attack would need to be perfect, so it's incredibly unlikely.

After a certain point, something the size of Godzilla is no longer a thing you fight with weapons. It is a force of destruction like a hurricane or volcano given flesh; you don't stop it, you get out of the way. That's not a satisfying story, I know. But some things in life cannot be beaten by a single man. And some things can't be stopped, but can be suppressed. Hurricanes eventually blow out; the dragon isn't going to be up and active long, and then it will sleep for centuries before stirring. Maybe a great ritual can keep it asleep, thus neutralizing it. Maybe a God or some other thing could slay it--Hercules had to use Medusa's gaze--a God-created curse--to kill the Kraken.

 

[Raduin711]

Going back to the original Gaiman quote (teaching children that dragons can be defeated) I strongly agree with that. I don't really see the point in a dragon that cannot be defeated.

Sure, there are things out there that cannot be defeated. The same should be true for stories as well, but I don't see why dragons should be on that list. It comes off as very cynical and defeatist.

And again, defeated doesn't mean killed- Coraline does not kill the Beldam, she only rescues her parents and seals her up in her other world.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Only because Batman has invulnerable plot armor. Superman should be able to use his heat vision from orbit to take him out.

I think that kind of demonstrates Gaiman's principle, doesn't it? Regardless of the power and logical capabilities of the adversary, the human beats them, because that's the point of the story.

(Also Batman obviously has an array of hundreds of drone Bat-decoys secreted all over the world that can spoof his image and sound to confuse orbital Super-senses. Once Superman starts picking them off one by one with heat vision, he's a very high-energy target and easy prey for kryptonite-tipped missiles. And he is by definition looking down at this point, so as long as the Bat-satellites are in higher orbit, he won't even see them coming. )