D&D 5E Is Paladine Bahamut? Is Takhisis Tiamat? Fizban's Treasury Might Reveal The Answer!

According to WotC's James Wyatt, Fizban's Treasury of Dragons introduces a new cosmology for dragon gods, where the same beings, including Fizban, echo across various D&D campaign settings with alternate versions of themselves (presumably like Paladine/Bahamut, or Takhisis/Tiamat). Also... the various version can merge into one single form.

Takhisis is the five-headed dragon god of evil from the Dragonlance setting. Paladine is the platinum dragon god of good (and also Fizban's alter-ego).

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Additionally, the book will contain psychic gem dragons, with stats for all four age categories of the five varieties (traditionally there are Amethyst, Crystal, Emerald, Sapphire, and Topaz), plus Dragonborn characters based on metallic, chromatic, and gem dragons.


 
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Russ Morrissey

Russ Morrissey

dave2008

Legend
Maybe they are like "Aspects" from 3.5 Miniature handbook. Paladine and Bahamut would be something like Peter Parker(Spiderman) and Scarlet Spider(Ben Reilly), both are the same but different, or like Logan/Wolwerine and Laura Kinney/X-23, or Jean Grey and Madeline Prior. Or the döppleganger characters from a mirror universe or parallel earth.


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I read somewhere the book contains "Aspects" of the dragon gods. So I think you are correct!
 

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Urriak Uruk

Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
Yep, this was always the best and most logical way to reconcile how the gods can both be the same and different from one another... it also just makes sense for a deity in a Multiverse. You have to be "All-Seeing" so should try to have a presence on as many worlds as possible, but inevitably these aspects will end up looking a little different based on their environments.

So the gods are simultaneously acting with different avatars on different worlds, while also still maintaining some consistencies across all aspects.
 

Yes, I believe that was the one.

I will see what I can find. The 3e comment is a post by WotC (can remember who) on their website. So some people say that it is not "official" because it was not in a product, despite the source. The 4e one I honestly don't remember, but the 5e one is actually in the DMG (and now this book it seems). The Orb of Dragonkind entry says:

"The dragon essence within the orb might want many things: the annihilation of a particular people, freedom from the orb, to spread suffering in the world, to advance the worship of Takhisis (Tiamat’s name on Krynn), or something else the DM decides."
I understand fizban and bahamut being the same, but Takhisis and Tiamat always seemed different. I always equated Takhisis more to Shar in terms of personality and scope, compared to Tiamat who just sort of always comes off to me as “just a big dragon that people keep summoning every edition”
 

darjr

I crit!
Yeah, I'm sure they will. Just, hopefully they won't decide that any of the Sovereigns are actually avatars of Paladine. They've muddied the Eberron cosmology enough.

Why would they be related? They're from completely separate worlds. This is like assuming that bats and owls must surely be closely related since they both fly at night. And I've never seen any depiction of Tiamat as such that remotely reminded me of Takhisis beyone "is evil" and the silhouette. Hell, I cant recall Tiamat ever appearing to anyone as a dark haired femme fatale with a dope crown. Paladine and Bahamut I can kinda see, at least in Paladine's guise as a human paladin and the fact they both like to wander in unassuming human forms and are heavily worshipped by paladin types, etc.

But even if they were more similar in presentation, my stance would be to differentiate them more clearly, not to combine them.

Exactly. If I had my way, the worlds of DnD would stay an actual multi-verse, rather than a shared universe that gets called a multiverse even though all the worlds you make characters in are on the same plane of existence. Dragonlance should be in it's own cosmology, as should FR, and Greyhawk, and Athas, and Eberron, and whatever they come up with next. Let Planescape and the like present an alternate cosmology that combines all the worlds. No one in 2021 under the age of 50 is confused by AUs.

Why try to make it about "upset"? People have preferences. Literally no one has expressed any strong emotions about the topic.

Or do you not know that the idea of being upset is commonly used to invalidate the opinions of others?
I didn’t mean anything quite as extreme as that. But folks do seem unhappy.

I think people should be allowed to be upset over things. I just don’t get it in this case.
 




Orius

Hero
As far as I'm aware of, Tiamat/Takhsis "are" the same and the same could be said for Bahamut/Paladine as well since both are Platinum Scaled dragons. And since now Dragons have "echoes" of their alternate reality versions and stuff, well there ya go.

I say leave it up to the DM. I'm pretty sure the original Dragonlance modules intended them to be the same more or less, but TSR went and muddied things up for reasons. It's not really a big deal anyway.

And still no one will include Saridor in any of their worlds.
Sardior is on my list of dragon gods.
 




One of the things that some brought up when I mentioned real-world mythology, particular the subject of the Babylonian God Marduk and his rivalry with Tiamat which seems to be glossed over, is that Marduk might also be another name for Bahamut, especially in Toril where the Babylonian Pantheon is known as the Untheric Pantheon.
 


Alzrius

The EN World kitten
One of the things that some brought up when I mentioned real-world mythology, particular the subject of the Babylonian God Marduk and his rivalry with Tiamat which seems to be glossed over, is that Marduk might also be another name for Bahamut, especially in Toril where the Babylonian Pantheon is known as the Untheric Pantheon.
Marduk's rivalry with Tiamat is explicitly mentioned in On Hallowed Ground (where Marduk is presented as being a separate deity from Bahamut). Insofar as the Forgotten Realms goes, Powers & Pantheons put Marduk as one of the members of the Untheric pantheon whose manifestation was destroyed (severing his connection to Realmspace) during the Battle of the Gods (against the orc gods) in -1071 DR (P&P, p. 95).

Dragons of Faerûn (p. 8), on the other hand, says that Marduk was always an alias of Bahamut (at least in the Realms), citing his being reduced in power as a result of the Battle of the Gods.

Please note my use of affiliate links in this post.
 

dave2008

Legend
Why would they be related?
They are both 5-headed evil dragon goddesses with a white, black, green, blue, and red heads that relate yo cold, acid, poison, lightning, and fire respectively. Other than some ornamentation, they are exactly the same.
They're from completely separate worlds.
Gods are not from worlds, they are from their divine realms. The influence a world (or worlds) through their divine aspects or avatars. Seems pretty (super)natural to me.
This is like assuming that bats and owls must surely be closely related since they both fly at night.
Not even close. It is more like saying a great horned owl and great grey owl are both owls. Yes, there are slight differences, but they are both owls.
And I've never seen any depiction of Tiamat as such that remotely reminded me of Takhisis beyone "is evil" and the silhouette.
IDK, I mean Tak has gotten a lot more one v one time in novels than Tiamat I think, so it is really kinda hard to say IMO
Hell, I cant recall Tiamat ever appearing to anyone as a dark haired femme fatale with a dope crown.
My goodness - just do a search for Tiamat on Deviant Art and you will see a lot of people see Tiamat that way. And I believe that she is described that way in the 4e Draconomicon.

EDIT:
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One of the things that some brought up when I mentioned real-world mythology, particular the subject of the Babylonian God Marduk and his rivalry with Tiamat which seems to be glossed over, is that Marduk might also be another name for Bahamut, especially in Toril where the Babylonian Pantheon is known as the Untheric Pantheon.
Bahamut beung equivalent to the Untheric Marduk in FR was confirmed in the 3e Dragons of Faerûn.
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
I would love it if the First World was one of the two completely new settings they were planning.
No, I'm tired of them taking my concepts* and publishing them and then any new players yawning and saying thats not clever, or even telling me my stuff is wrong because it varies from the cannon.

/sigh

:p

/rant over

*I know that good ideas can be involved in independent development, like the wheel. I just get grumpy.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
They are both 5-headed evil dragon goddesses with a white, black, green, blue, and red heads that relate yo cold, acid, poison, lightning, and fire respectively. Other than some ornamentation, they are exactly the same.
Fun fact: according to page 134 of Powers & Pantheons, while Tiamat's draconic avatar always has five heads, she can have the colors of those heads be any combination of blue, red, green, black, white, brown, or yellow.
 

Whizbang Dustyboots

100% that gnome
No, I'm tired of them taking my concepts* and publishing them and then any new players yawning and saying thats not clever, or even telling me my stuff is wrong because it varies from the cannon.

/sigh

:p

/rant over

*I know that good ideas can be involved in independent development, like the wheel. I just get grumpy.
Tyranny of Dragons came out just as I was wrapping up a years-long campaign arc coming to an almost identical climax. I'm not sure who Wolfgang Baur had spying on my table, but I did not appreciate it!
 


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