Is Proof Against Transmutation armor enchantment from the MoF an Epic enchantment?

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

??????????????????????????????????

How'd that happen, I didn't see that when I re-read my post.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

How would Protection from Transmutation compare to, say, Protection from Evil?

Pro Evil gives you nearly total immunity to Enchantment spells and gives limited protection from Conjuration spells as well.

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

Originally posted by krenolds
Oh really? From where I'm standing, your still on the receiving end.

Pah-leez... Can I have a puff of whatever your smoking, it must be pretty good sh*t.

Originally posted by krenolds
Incorrect. This is not my logic. This is your interpretation of my logic, but incorrect none the less.

No, now your assuming what I'm thinking. I understood you clearly the first time around, I just simplified it.

Originally posted by krenolds
In fact, the FRCS specifically states that it was written without the need for even the preliminary epic level rules. If it doesn't need, nor require, the epic level rules, then Proof against Transmutation isn't epic level, as it was designed without requiring it. Thus, Proof against Transmutation is not an epic enhancement, simply because it was designed, along with the FRCS, as well as MaoF, to function completely independtly of the epic level rules.

Here we go again, lets put this issue to a rest.
The question is NOT: What books does, or doesn't, the MaoF, FRCS require , I aready know they only require core books.
Rather the question IS: What books are being used in your campaign?

Let's attack this from another angle. There are two inherent differences in the ELH from other supplimental books of its kind, they are:

1. The ELH actually "retools" your campaign, actually altering whats written in other books at times, the DMG notwithstanding.
2. Weighing in at a hefty 319 pages, not only will it cause MORE damage when you smack your buddy upside the head with it, it'll probably knock him out cold.


Here are some concrete examples of ELH redefining other books:
--- a. Random town generation (DMG, pg. 137) --> New random town generator (ELH, pg. 113)
--- b. Elminster (FRCS, pg. 7) ---> New Elminster (ELH, pg. 291)

Because the ELH got so big, the game designers had to limit what they put into the book, redefining everything takes up too much space (I think they had to cut 250 pages). So to deal with the problem of space they added guidelines on how to adjust your campaign to fit Epic play, there's a section on retooling I believe. A glaring example are the Gods from the Deities book. They have to be revamped in an Epic world, just skimming their major magic items alone I don't think any has a weapon of greater than a +5 enhancement. Unlikely for a God in Epic play.

There are many books out there that have been written before the ELH came out and some magic items within them which are not Epic would become Epic if the ELH is used, for example:
ToB ---> rods of greater, chaining, maximizing, and quickening
PsiH ---> skin of iron
MaoF ---> halruaan skyship
MaoF ---> proof of transmutation

There are clear guidelines on how to handle magic items when converting your campaign to an Epic one. I'm not arguing that Proof of Transmutation is powerful, therefore needs to be epic, not in the least. I'm arguing that if a campaign uses the ELH, then ALL +6 armor special abilities must be "retooled" as Epic.

If you feel that Proof of Transmutation is too weak to be Epic in an Epic world, then evoke the house rule, no arguements here.

But if someone's campaign uses the MaoF as well as the ELH, then Proof/Trans is retooled as Epic by default as per the ELH and only a house rule can change that.

 

[kreynolds]

Pah-leez...

Yeah....you like that, huh?

No, now your assuming what I'm thinking.

Nope. I am merely stating that what you said was my opinion was incorrect.

I understood you clearly the first time around

No you didn't. If you had, you would have gotten it right.

I just simplified it.

You simplified it, but it wasn't my opinion to begin with. See previous answer.

Here we go again, lets put this issue to a rest.

I'll go along with that.

The question is NOT: What books does, or doesn't, the MaoF, FRCS require , I aready know they only require core books.

Correct. You successfully addressed one teeny tiny portion of my post.

Rather the question IS: What books are being used in your campaign?

I know where you're going with this, but it doesn't matter.

Let's attack this from another angle. There are two inherent differences in the ELH from other supplimental books of its kind, they are:

1. The ELH actually "retools" your campaign, actually altering whats written in other books at times, the DMG notwithstanding.

Yes, the ELH actually "retools" your campaign, and some of the rules from the PHB, the DMG, and even the MM. However, the problem is that the Proof against transmutation armor enhancement breaks if it is retooled. It is worth 36,000gp, not 360,000gp.

Proof against Transmutation does not have the power of an epic enhancement. It was not designed to. Thus, converted over, it breaks. Now, why does it break? Well, here's the kicker...

Because MaoF was written long before the ELH came out, and because of that, Proof against Transmutation was inserted as is because the ELH did not exist, thus the armor stood on it's own in standard play.

...Throw the ELH into the mix, and the enhancement breaks.

<snip>

I'm snipping the rest of this crap because it has already been gone over.

Oh...that's it? No more post to reply to. Guess that means we're done!

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

I'm baa-aaack

Oh...that's it? No more post to reply to. Guess that means we're done!

I had to get my beauty rest, sheesh... (damn, I'm good lookin)...

As long as your +6 or higher enhancement isn't too powerful, you need not use the epic level rules.

the problem is that the Proof against transmutation armor enhancement breaks if it is retooled. It is worth 36,000gp, not 360,000gp.

There is no problem here, that "it breaks" is obviously your opinion. The fact is, one or more of the authors felt it deserved a +6 rating.

I see no difference between making Proof/Trans worth from 36k, to 360k in an Epic world, it fits nicely with other +6 abilities in the ELH like Acid or Sonic warding. Again your opinion vs what is written in the books.

...Throw the ELH into the mix, and the enhancement breaks.

I think know the crux of your problem, here let me find....

Just in case you're curious

I am now

Originally posted (waaay back) by kreynolds

I agree that many of the weapon and armor enhancements are pretty lame to be considered "epic", which is precisely why I won't be using the x10 epic formula for them.

...for the beefed up burst weapon enhancements, I won't be pricing them using the x10 formula. I'll be using a x3 or x4 formula (x4 for sonic, x 3 for the rest). In fact, I won't be using the x10 formula across the board at all. I'll be using x2 to x10 depending upon the bonus, ability, enhancement, etc, in question.

Seems, I have found your problem my friend, the whole x10 factor offends you across the board . I understand now, you disagree with the ELH so strongly, that not only will you not allow it to change any items outside the ELH, but you will take the extra step and change the ELH itself.

SHAME ON YOU!

This is not about what you will house rule in your campaigns, this is about a guy who asked a question about Epics and Proof/Trans in his own campaigns. Does he play in your world? No. Do you know what opinions they have on the subject? No.

Originally posted (waaay back) by kreynolds

...compared to Acid Resistance 50 is a pretty big difference. IMO, Acid Resistance 50 is a hell of a lot more poweful than simply being immune to transmutation. Aside from Disintegrate, no form of transmutation in and of itself will kill you.

Again (repetition is the best teacher), its not a matter of fact. I'm sure others will disagree.

Keeping as a strict rules lawyer (which you've obviously have not been on this subject), Proof/Trans becomes an Epic ability when the ELH is introduced into a campaign, thats the short and correct answer.

 

[kreynolds]

<snip even more crap>Keeping as a strict rules lawyer (which you've obviously have not been on this subject), Proof/Trans becomes an Epic ability when the ELH is introduced into a campaign, thats the short and correct answer.

It's not that simple, even from a rules lawyer perspective.

(By the way, I'm not avoiding the rest of your post, just ignoring it.)

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

It's not that simple, even from a rules lawyer perspective.

Yes it is.....

(By the way, I'm not avoiding the rest of your post, just ignoring it.)

I can understand why

 

[kreynolds]

I changed my mind.

There is no problem here, that "it breaks" is obviously your opinion.

Of course it's my opinion. If it wasn't, I wouldn't have anything to post.

The fact is, one or more of the authors felt it deserved a +6 rating.

The part that you can't seem to get drilled into your head is that a +6 rating in MaoF is not the same as a +6 rating from the ELH. Do you know why? Because they used 2 different sets of rules.

I see no difference between making Proof/Trans worth from 36k, to 360k in an Epic world, it fits nicely with other +6 abilities in the ELH like Acid or Sonic warding.

I disagree.

Again your opinion vs what is written in the books.

See second answer. See previous quote and put your foot in your mouth, hypocrite.

I think know the crux of your problem, here let me find....

I doubt it.

I am now

Huh?

Seems, I have found your problem my friend

Again, I doubt it.

the whole x10 factor offends you across the board .

Uhm...no. I have my opinions about when it should and shouldn't be used, but it certainly doesn't offend my across the board. There are situations in which x10 would be completely appropriate. Besides, from a rules perspective, I have never disputed the x10 rule and stated that it shouldn't be used in response to a rules question. I've brought it up in passing before, but never in response to a rules inquiry. Why? Because x10 is the rule.

I understand now

No you don't. See previous answer.

you disagree with the ELH so strongly, that not only will you not allow it to change any items outside the ELH, but you will take the extra step and change the ELH itself.

See previous answer.

SHAME ON YOU!

For what? Having an opinion?

This is not about what you will house rule in your campaigns

I never said it was.

this is about a guy who asked a question about Epics and Proof/Trans in his own campaigns.

That's right. And Proof against Transmutation was not written with the ELH in mind. If it had been, they would have left it at +5.

Does he play in your world? No.

You're right. He doesn't have to either.

Do you know what opinions they have on the subject? No.

Who? What subject? WTF?

Again (repetition is the best teacher

It depends. It doesn't work very well when you have no clue as to what you're doing. Such as...

its not a matter of fact.

...right here. I never said it was "matter of fact".

I'm sure others will disagree.

Of course. It would be impossible for everyone on earth, or even just the people here, to all have the same opinion. Did you have another point here or something? Because I don't recall ever stating that everyone would agree with me.

Keeping as a strict rules lawyer (which you've obviously have not been on this subject), Proof/Trans becomes an Epic ability when the ELH is introduced into a campaign, thats the short and correct answer.

Well...this part I already answered.

 

[kreynolds]

Yes it is.....

No. If it were that simple, we would be having this discussion.

I can understand why

Actually, you can't. See previous post.

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

I changed my mind.

Halleluya...

Of course it's my opinion. If it wasn't, I wouldn't have anything to post.

Liar!! I've seen you be the perfect unopinionated rules lawyer plenty of times before, what's stopping you now?

a +6 rating in MaoF is not the same as a +6 rating from the ELH. Do you know why? Because they used 2 different sets of rules.

What the f*ck!!! Just hold up a minute sir. A +6 rating is a +6 rating no matter what book it's in, they are equal.

The MaoF and the ELH use the SAME RULES. Both pull from the core books, they both say so. The +6 ratings were applied against other +4 and +5 abilities from the DMG, the authors decided which abilities warranted a +6 rating. Hence, they are the same.

Hey, in arravis' campaign, disintegrates and polymorphs may be very common, even making Proof/Trans better than some +8 abilities, don't be so quick to judge.

See second answer. See previous quote and put your foot in your mouth, hypocrite.

LOL, it's not the same thing. Even though I may agree or disagree with the MaoF or ELH, I'm not changing it to suit my needs and telling others, "hey this +6 is not the same as that +6". Get a grip.