Is Proof Against Transmutation armor enchantment from the MoF an Epic enchantment?

[kreynolds]

Liar!! I've seen you be the perfect unopinionated rules lawyer plenty of times before, what's stopping you now?

I don't follow you.

What the f*ck!!! Just hold up a minute sir. A +6 rating is a +6 rating no matter what book it's in, they are equal.

No, they most certainly are not. In the core rules, a +6 enhancement would be 36,000gp. In the ELH, a +6 enhancement would be 360,000gp. That's not equal, now is it?

The MaoF and the ELH use the SAME RULES.

No. They don't. The DMG does not restrict special enhancements to +5, nor does it overcharge for them, thus the creation of Proof against Transmutation. Suddenly, the ELH comes out and changes that, which doesn't adversely effect anything previous, except for Proof against Transmutation.

Hey, in arravis' campaign, disintegrates and polymorphs may be very common, even making Proof/Trans better than some +8 abilities, don't be so quick to judge.

That would be valid point if that were the case. If that's the case, then we shouldn't be having this discussion in the first place. But so far, that's not the case, now is it.

LOL, it's not the same thing.

Yes it is. My opinion is that Proof against Transmutation is not as powerful as the +6 armor enhancements found in the ELH. Your opinion is that it is as powerful. However, you slam me by stating that my opinion is not what's in the books. Get ready for a shock. Your opinion isn't in the books either. The ELH does not address the adverse effects it might have on Proof against Transmutation.

Even though I may agree or disagree with the MaoF or ELH, I'm not changing it to suit my needs

I haven't changed it to suit my needs. I am changing the enhancement itself because of play balance reasons. Technically, you can blame MaoF for this mess, since it was the only product bold enough to include a +6 enhancement. Had it not been for that, this never would have happened. However, the ELH also doesn't take into account what effects it might have on an obviously snap decision +6 enhancement.

and telling others, "hey this +6 is not the same as that +6".

That's because it isn't.

Get a grip.

On what?

 

[Ristamar]

Someone just email Skip, be a man and suck up whatever answer he gives, and then move on with life.

Sheesh...

 

[Westwind]

I was wondering if either of you have a PC in your respective campaign with this armor?

 

[kreynolds]

I was wondering if either of you have a PC in your respective campaign with this armor?

Out of 3 games I play in? None of my characters, nor have I met an NPC with one. Out of 5 games I run (I finally got the number down)? None of my players nor any of my PCs.

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

Someone just email Skip, be a man and suck up whatever answer he gives, and then move on with life.

Sheesh...

What, and ruin all my fun?!?! Actually that's a very good idea, I'll try him.

In the core rules, a +6 enhancement would be 36,000gp. In the ELH, a +6 enhancement would be 360,000gp. That's not equal, now is it?

In an Epic world, it would be equal to all +6 enhancements ---> that's equal.

The DMG does not restrict special enhancements to +5, nor does it overcharge for them...

Again, the core of this issue is that the x10 cost modifer offends you. I've already dealt with this.

...thus the creation of Proof against Transmutation. Suddenly, the ELH comes out and changes that, which doesn't adversely effect anything previous, except for Proof against Transmutation.

And your point is?

Hey, in arravis' campaign, disintegrates and polymorphs may be very common, even making Proof/Trans better than some +8 abilities, don't be so quick to judge.

Originally posted by kreynolds

But so far, that's not the case, now is it.

You seem to know what is or is not the case arravis' campaign, could it be insider information? Or is that yet another of your infamous opinions?

My opinion is that Proof against Transmutation is not as powerful as the +6 armor enhancements found in the ELH. Your opinion is that it is as powerful.

This is true, but is irrelevant nonetheless from a rules lawyer point of view.

However, you slam me by stating that my opinion is not what's in the books.

No, Not at all, I like when people give their opinions, it means they put their brains to use as opposed to just regurgitating information from manuals. I just don't agree how you are answering the post.

The correct answer for a rules lawyer would be:

Arravis, as stated in the ELH (if your campaign uses that book), Proof from Transmutation would become Epic as outlined on pg. 123 (also see chapter on retooling), and subsequently be subject to the x10 cost factor.

However, it is of my opinion that Proof/Trans should not be subject to that rule because....

Get ready for a shock. Your opinion isn't in the books either.

Actually, my opinion is in the books. It was of the opinion of the author in the MaoF that Proof/Trans was better than any +5 ability in the DMG, he gave it a +6, the MaoF and I agree.

The ELH does not address the adverse effects it might have on Proof against Transmutation.

Actually it does in general terms, there are changes that need to be incorporated to fit Epic rules into any campaign. Remember, they had to cut over 200 pages from the ELH, specifically addressing one magic item would have been an Epic waste of space.

Technically, you can blame MaoF for this mess, since it was the only product bold enough to include a +6 enhancement.

I see no "mess" here, that again is a matter of opinion.

However, the ELH also doesn't take into account what effects it might have on an obviously snap decision +6 enhancement.

(Emphasis mine) "obviously snap decision"? More insider information, perhaps?

I not absolutely sure, but I'm willing to bet that my campaign world won't come crumbling down around me if I make P/T Epic. I will keep my eyes open though, thanks for the warning....

 

[Darkness]

...

h*ll

f*ck!!!
...

Heh. In most cases, it's not the best idea to censor a "bad" word by replacing just a single letter with an *; apart from leaving the word decipherable, it also makes it look like you're just trying to bypass the profanity filter, you see.

Which I don't think was your intention, though, given that you also censored h*ll, which isn't a "bad" word (i.e., eaten by the profanity filter) in EN World.

- Darkness

 

[kreynolds]

<snip>

You don't pay attention at all. Pitiful. *shrug*

 

[reiella]

Actually more than just Proof against Transmutation are affected by this.

The Halruuan Airship (MagF), The Cowl of Warding(MagF).
Intelligent weapons (DMG) are also able to breach the 200,000 epic cap and qualify for epic pricing.
Psychoactive Skin of Iron (PsiHB) also qualifies as an epic item, and ironically enough is about the same as an artifact covered in the ELH.

Probably more than a few others that I've missed too.

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

You don't pay attention at all. Pitiful. *shrug*

I do... no... OMG... could that be another of your...

opinions

A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-H-H (as Pit Fiend tumbles into the blackness of the abyss).

 

[kreynolds]

I do... no... OMG... could that be another of your...

opinions

A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-H-H (as Pit Fiend tumbles into the blackness of the abyss).

Actually, yes, it is my opinion. If you check, you'll note that nowhere in the core rules does it state that you are dense, but neither does it state that you are not, thus the matter is still up in the air and worthy of errata.