Is Proof Against Transmutation armor enchantment from the MoF an Epic enchantment?

[HEL Pit Fiend]

You're preachin' to the choir.

Since you post a h*ll lot more than I do, I can safely tell you that we think more alike than you know.

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Proof Against Transmutation armor enchantment from the MoF an Epic enchantment?

<snip>

I've already voiced my opinion, so I'll let everyone else voice theirs. That, and I don't have anything else to add to the discussion right now (long day). Besides, at this point, we're just regurgitating what has already been said.

 

[kreynolds]

Since you post a h*ll lot more than I do, I can safely tell you that we think more alike than you know.

What does my post frequency have to do with us thinking alike? You lost me on that one.

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Proof Against Transmutation armor enchantment from the MoF an Epic enchantmen

Besides, at this point, we're just regurgitating what has already been said.

Speak for yourself, I made many new points.

If you don't have any or can't think of any arguements against my points then just let it be. Don't come here and post that I'm saying what has already been said, when it isn't true.

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Proof Against Transmutation armor enchantment from the MoF an Epic enchan

Speak for yourself, I made many new points.

No you didn't. You just broke down one very broad previously made point into many smaller ones.

If you don't have any or can't think of any arguements against my points then just let it be.

I am. I said as much.

Don't come here and post that I'm saying what has already been said, when it isn't true.

It is true, but maybe I should have clarified by saying that you simply didn't add anything substantial, thus you might as well have not added anything at all. Your breakdown of what the DMG doesn't say you can't do doesn't further your argument. You know what else the DMG doesn't say you can't do? Turn Dire Bears into Gold with a wink of your right eye and twitch of your nose. That's about as helpful as your argument. *shrug*

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Proof Against Transmutation armor enchantment from the MoF an Epic en

No you didn't. You just broke down one very broad previously made point into many smaller ones.

Still, I made new points

Your breakdown of what the DMG doesn't say you can't do doesn't further your argument.

You didn't understand my point, I used that example to show how silly and illogical your point was. Let me illustrate for you further:

Your logic:

The DMG is just fine as a reference in this case. Nowhere does it state that weapon or armor enhancements are limited to +5. It doesn't even imply such a thing.

Here is the evidence:

1) The DMG does not limit special armor or weapon enhancements to +5.
2) The FRCS obviously allows enhancements above +5.

Your logic is:
a) If the DMG does not limit it
and
b) The FRCS allows it
therefore
c) The +6 armor enchantment in question is not epic


There is a fundamental problem to your logic:
a) The DMG does not and can not define what is and isn't epic.
and
b) Ditto for the FRCS
therefore
c) How can you say what is and isn't epic relying on only those 2 books? "Epic" is not even mentioned once in the DMG, yet your using it as the holy grail of what item is or isn't epic, at least by your above example.

It is true, but maybe I should have clarified by saying that you simply didn't add anything substantial, thus you might as well have not added anything at all.

Here's something substantial, b*tch

Epic Level Handbook, page 123 ---> The epic level "10 commandments" of magic items.

If a magic item has one of those abilities listed, it's epic , bubba!

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is Proof Against Transmutation armor enchantment from the MoF an Epi

Still, I made new points

That's a matter of perspective.

You didn't understand my point

Yes I did. I just thought it was an empty one.

I used that example to show how silly and illogical your point was.

You did? That's news to me.

Let me illustrate for you further:

I can't wait...

Your logic is:
a) If the DMG does not limit it
and
b) The FRCS allows it
therefore

So far so good...

c) The +6 armor enchantment in question is not epic

Incorrect. This is not my logic. This is your interpretation of my logic, but incorrect none the less.

A) The DMG does not limit it
B) The FRCS allows it
C) The ELH is a rules supplement, and was made long after the +6 enhancement Proof against Transmutation. At the time Magic of Faerun was produced, the ELH was in early early development, and the Magic of Faerun was produced without requiring, nor using, anything from the epic level rules. The epic level rules were in pre-pre-pre-beta at the time the FRCS came out, and it didn't cover epic level weapon enhancements. In fact, the FRCS specifically states that it was written without the need for even the preliminary epic level rules. If it doesn't need, nor require, the epic level rules, then Proof against Transmutation isn't epic level, as it was designed without requiring it. Thus, Proof against Transmutation is not an epic enhancement, simply because it was designed, along with the FRCS, as well as MaoF, to function completely independtly of the epic level rules.

There is a fundamental problem to your logic:

This should be interesting...

a) The DMG does not and can not define what is and isn't epic.

It doesn't need to. The DMG was written without the need of the ELH, thus nothing in the DMG applies to the ELH. The ELH, if used, does not supercede the item creation rules, when in fact, it extends them. In the DMG, +6 or higher enhancements are not disallowed, and to prove this, Proof against Transmutation was added to MaoF. However, Proof against Transmutation wasn't even designed with the ELH in mind, as the FRCS can function completely independtly of it. So, if you slap on the ELH rules and apply it to Proof against Transmutation, a weapon enhancement that was not designed with the epic level rules in mind, what you end up with is a +1 proof against transmutation suit of armor that will cost you at least 361,000gp, and proof against transmutation isn't worth that at all, though it is worth it at a cost of 49,000gp (which is perfectly reasonable for the enhancement).

b) Ditto for the FRCS

See previous answer.

therefore
c) How can you say what is and isn't epic relying on only those 2 books?

See previous answer.

"Epic" is not even mentioned once in the DMG

I never said it was.

yet your using it as the holy grail of what item is or isn't epic

Hardly. I judge whether or not an item is "epic" (in the sense of powerful beyond the norm) based upon it's power level, usefulness, and overall value. So, this "holy grail" that you speak of, if I use one at all, is simply a matter of game balance. Perhaps you believe that game balance isn't a factor unless you are using the epic level rules (conjecture). *shrug*

Here's something substantial, b*tch

Oh really? From where I'm standing, your still on the receiving end.

Epic Level Handbook, page 123 ---> The epic level "10 commandments" of magic items.

If a magic item has one of those abilities listed, it's epic , bubba!

See 6th and 8th answer.

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

The only point I would make here is that there are creatures that had more than 4 base attacks before epic, and epic changed that from one week to the next. The +5 max applies only to weapon bonuses to hit and damage in print, but I don't think it would be a stretch to say that it applies to the other bonuses as well, since no other ability costs more than +5 save this one.

If you are going to use epic, then this looks like it would count. If you are not, then no worries.

Or you could just drop it to a +5, if you don't think this one ability is worth it.

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

The only point I would make here is that there are creatures that had more than 4 base attacks before epic, and epic changed that from one week to the next. The +5 max applies only to weapon bonuses to hit and damage in print, but I don't think it would be a stretch to say that it applies to the other bonuses as well, since no other ability costs more than +5 save this one.

If you are going to use epic, then this looks like it would count. If you are not, then no worries.

Or you could just drop it to a +5, if you don't think this one ability is worth it.

 

[kreynolds]

Or you could just drop it to a +5, if you don't think this one ability is worth it.

This is probably the best solution. After all, Vorpal is only a +5, and it's the deadliest weapon enhancement (to creatures not immune to criticals, anyway) out there.

By the way, having a bit o' trouble with double-posting there?