Is Proof Against Transmutation armor enchantment from the MoF an Epic enchantment?

[kreynolds]

The DMG states in rather no plain speak that no single enchantment can be higher than +5.

No it doesn't. It states that your weapon or armor can not have an enhancement bonus (to hit and damage, or to AC) of higher than +5, and your overall enhancement bonus can't be higher than +10. That's what says.

if this is +6 then it's not legal by the DMG rules.

Incorrect. See previous answer.

 

[Marshall]

...compared to Acid Resistance 50 is a pretty big difference. IMO, Acid Resistance 50 is a hell of a lot more poweful than simply being immune to transmutation. Aside from Disintegrate, no form of transmutation in and of itself will kill you.

Youre kidding right?!?!?

There isnt an Enhancement in that book for Weapons or Armor that should be Epic. AFAI'm concerned the special abilities section is by far the weakest part of the book. Tho it is quickly followed by the Magic Items section...

 

[kreynolds]

Youre kidding right?!?!?

Well...that depends...

There isnt an Enhancement in that book for Weapons or Armor that should be Epic.

OK...you got me...I was kidding...sort of. I agree that many of the weapon and armor enhancements are pretty lame to be considered "epic", which is precisely why I won't be using the x10 epic formula for them.

 

[Marshall]

OK...you got me...I was kidding...sort of. I agree that many of the weapon and armor enhancements are pretty lame to be considered "epic", which is precisely why I won't be using the x10 epic formula for them.

Oh! Thank You! My respect for your opinion is restored!

Wait a minute... What respect? Me?!? Respect?!?!? What Am I Thinking?

 

[kreynolds]

Oh! Thank You! My respect for your opinion is restored!

Just in case you're curious, for the beefed up burst weapon enhancements, I won't be pricing them using the x10 formula. I'll be using a x3 or x4 formula (x4 for sonic, x 3 for the rest). In fact, I won't be using the x10 formula across the board at all. I'll be using x2 to x10 depending upon the bonus, ability, enhancement, etc, in question.

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

Is Proof Against Transmutation (p. 137 of Magic of Faerun) armor enchantment an Epic enchantment? It lists this enchantmet as having a "Market Price: +6 bonus".

Arravis, it depends if you are using the epic rules or not.

If you are not using the ELH then it is not epic. But if you are using epic level rules, then it probably should be considered epic and require the epic craft feat. The DMG is not a good reference on this one since no special ability is above +5 by itself and no magic item is above 200,000 gc.

The rules spelled out in the ELH, are clear: any special ability with a market price modifier greater than +5 is Epic. This will not affect any of the core books since there are no +6 and higher armor or weapon abilities, but it will affect all other books such as the MoF.

Look at the ToB, there are rods in there well over 200,000 gc. That book came out BEFORE the ELH and there is no reference of them being Epic. Now that the ELH is out, they are epic items.

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Is Proof Against Transmutation armor enchantment from the MoF an Epic enchantment?

The DMG is not a good reference on this one since no special ability is above +5 by itself and no magic item is above 200,000 gc.

The DMG is just fine as a reference in this case. Nowhere does it state that weapon or armor enhancements are limited to +5. It doesn't even imply such a thing.

As far as the 200,000gp limit is concerned, that doesn't even apply in this case. A suit of +3 proof against transmutation full plate would only cost 163,250, so even according to the gold piece definition of artifacts (over 200,000gp), it's still not an artifact, not even a minor artifact. Sticking with this gold piece limit, however, a suit of +4 proof against transmutation full plate would not be possible as a non-artifact item, as the price would be 201,250gp, which is over the limit.

By the way, the 200,000gp limit is refered to as a 250,000gp in Lord of the Iron Fortress.

Now, it could be argued that weapon and armor enhancements are limited to +5 in Greyhawk and that this limitation does not exist in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. I don't have a problem with that argument.

Here is the evidence:

1) The DMG does not limit special armor or weapon enhancements to +5.
2) The FRCS obviously allows enhancements above +5.

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

In fact, I won't be using the x10 formula across the board at all. I'll be using x2 to x10 depending upon the bonus, ability, enhancement, etc, in question.

Be careful with this. In the CR system there is a built-in power curve and re-defining what epic items are worth will unbalance your game. I know that the 10x costs seem absurd to many, but the epic monsters that you will be fighting have that factored in in their challenge ratings.

Just as 1st, 2nd or 3rd level characters are not supposed to be walking around with a bunch of magic items, 21st, 22nd and 23rd level epic characters are not supposed to walk around with a bunch of epic items. By 32nd level, a x4 cost for this and a x6 cost for that will unbalance your games.

 

[kreynolds]

Be careful with this. In the CR system there is a built-in power curve and re-defining what epic items are worth will unbalance your game. I know that the 10x costs seem absurd to many, but the epic monsters that you will be fighting have that factored in in their challenge ratings.

Just as 1st, 2nd or 3rd level characters are not supposed to be walking around with a bunch of magic items, 21st, 22nd and 23rd level epic characters are not supposed to walk around with a bunch of epic items. By 32nd level, a x4 cost for this and a x6 cost for that will unbalance your games.

You're preachin' to the choir. Besides, I don't think the x10 costs are absurd, just lazy.

 

[HEL Pit Fiend]

Re: Re: Re: Is Proof Against Transmutation armor enchantment from the MoF an Epic enchantment?

The DMG is just fine as a reference in this case. Nowhere does it state that weapon or armor enhancements are limited to +5. It doesn't even imply such a thing.

No. The DMG is NOT a good reference on what should and shouldn't be epic, the ELH is.

Now, it could be argued that weapon and armor enhancements are limited to +5 in Greyhawk and that this limitation does not exist in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. I don't have a problem with that argument.

Here is the evidence:

1) The DMG does not limit special armor or weapon enhancements to +5.
2) The FRCS obviously allows enhancements above +5.

Your logic is flawed,

Nowhere in the DMG does it not allow an item to have
--1. +31 or higher on enhancements on skill checks
--2. +6 or higher on resistance, deflection, or natural armor
--3. +8 or higher on enhancements on ability scores
--4. 200,000+ gc in value
--5. +6 or higher single enhancement bonus on armor

Yet, according to the Epic Level Handbook any item that has the qualities listed above is Epic, whether you live in Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms it don't matter.

A suit of +3 proof against transmutation full plate would only cost 163,250.

If your world is using the Epic level rules, that item should be worth 1,632,500 gc. If not, then it is worth as written in the MoF.

My point is (just in case you ask) if you are going to use the Epic rules in your campaign, the ELH trumps all non-core books in matters of Epic stuff.