Is RAISE DEAD (etc.) too readily available in most D&D campaigns?

[Storyteller01]

And apparently does

Is death the only risk in your game? Since you say that easy return from the dead means there's "no risk," I assume so. IMC, PCs don't die, but there are a very large number of risks and repercussions for defeat. In fact, while I joke that I don't kill PCs permanently because that means they've escaped, it's partly serious. Permanent death is an easy way out. If that doesn't exist, then PCs have to live with the repercussions of their actions.

Plenty of risks. The party is still suffereing from a botched gather info check directed at sensitive information. The party leaders father had to shut down plans he had going for centuries. They now have to deal with an 'apologies' quest to regain dad's trust (a 4 day random roll romp through predator infested swamps). The players all agree that it's what a black dragon would do, and they're looking forward to some basic hack & slash.

Plus, since this is a game and the characters don't exist and the players do, the only real risk of permanent death is the risk of not getting to continue playing your current PC. After all, the player will presumably continue playing in the game with a different PC. So the results of the risk are totally being borne by the player and not the character. It just seems a really strange definition and form of risk to me.

Having invested so much into a character a player will think twice about anything suicidal, just as the character would. Even if a raise was available death is a messy, painful business. To me, weighing out the risks and judging if it's worth it is better than 'meh... I'll take point. Make sure the raise scrolls are ready'.

As the moniker says, I prefer telling stories to just rolling. Every story's goal is to immerse the viewer in that world for a while; feel what the heros are feeling. That's the game I DM. Might not be for everyone, but (as stated repeatedly) my players seem to enjoy it. They haven't run screaming.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Why? The best stories and memories of the game come from situations where the character might not come back.

Really? So can you tell me when Conan died and the rest of the party mourned him?

How about Gandalf's death? Oh wait, he came back slightly more powerful...

I can think of only a handful of character deaths in story that actually were of main characters and they are generally in A Song of Fire and Ice and Black Company, low powered, grim and gritty style readings.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Really? So can you tell me when Conan died and the rest of the party mourned him?

Wasn't Conan raised from the dead?

 

[Storyteller01]

Really? So can you tell me when Conan died and the rest of the party mourned him?

How about Gandalf's death? Oh wait, he came back slightly more powerful...

I can think of only a handful of character deaths in story that actually were of main characters and they are generally in A Song of Fire and Ice and Black Company, low powered, grim and gritty style readings.

Not sure about Conan, but Gandalf's raising was divine intervention without the use of a cleric. A near impossible story effecting event. Other members of the fellowship who died didn't get that option.

Can you imagine how the story would have turned out if Aragorn had said the newly white mage 'Hey! Good to see you back! What church was it this time?'.

 

[shilsen]

Can you imagine how the story would have turned out if Aragorn had said the newly white mage 'Hey! Good to see you back! What church was it this time?'.

Can you imagine how the story would have turned out if Aragorn got killed permanently by the orcs at the end of Fellowship?

 

[Storyteller01]

Can you imagine how the story would have turned out if Aragorn got killed permanently by the orcs at the end of Fellowship?

Did he die, or just come really close to death (stabilizing)?

Did his party go to a cleric, or did some creature with magic beyond the human norm give him help?

 

[DonTadow]

Let's call "luck" what it is, shall we?

It's fudging. It's a means of ignoring the die rolls on the table and the obvious conclusion that your character is dead.

You fudge your way. I'll fudge mine.

There's a big difference between fudging and an optional rules mechanic. Fudging implies that you push the dice roll whatever way you want, ignoring the mechanical rules of the game. That is NOT what action points and luck attributes do. Luck and action points add the "heroic luck" factor that you often see in movies. Again, you show me a movie where they consistently get a character resurrected (and please don't mention the quest for spock) and I will gladly give your argument a bone.

Now, action points and fate cards ( or whatever you use) are limited. Players only get a certain amount and even then only at certain times (usually once per limited). They have set limits, in particular a die roll to increase a save or multiple cards to stabilize or reroll a stabilization. This is the most accurate way to replicate the "how'd the heck that hero stave off the poison" scenes you often see in movies and such. It's the thing in my games that separates the heroes from the common mooks.

Again, I can't think of a non dungeons and dragons media where easy to use resurrection is appart of the story. I'd like to say it makes it more of a board game, but there are few board games with the light penalties as d and d's resurrection rules. Done right, the resurrection rules should not be a problem, but dms and players who use them often abuse them. A good story telling DM would probably only allow it less than 5 percent of the time if they consider the concept of the character "wanting" to come back. Only someone playing a game would think their character would voluntarily leave bliss for the mortal world.

 

[molonel]

It's not the same at all. You get one 'get out of jail free' roll. Just one. When you die, roll a d20. That's how many hit points you have left. Use it to get out of dodge or die for real. The 'god roll' has several other uses, so if you rolled to improve your odds somewhere earlier in the game...

Most definitely not a free res.

It's fudging. Call it what you want, or define it how you wish. Your characters, in the end, are alive when they should be dead. They simply arrived there by a different means than the characters in my campaigns. There is nothing "free" about resurrection.

The game is supposed to be about flexibility among players. I don't want stories centering around 'remember when you died that time' unless it's tied to 'and the crap we had to go through to pull it off!'. Because of this my players play smarter. They use cover, a player has taken max ranks in heal, and they co-operate more than 'launch the fireball while I charge in'. The 'golden hour' becomes one of the most suspenseful parts of the game (can we stablizie him in time?).

Okay. You don't want stories like that, and you feel that it improves the quality of your games. If you were merely speaking about your games, and not stating larger implications on the nature of other people's games in which you have not played, then there would be no problem here. Different strokes for different folks, and all that.

Clerics rolling saves to cast: both our divine casters like the change. The rule is that you don't have to memorize spells, but you have to Will save to cast. One worships luck, so it works for his concept. The spell may or may not work, and he has his luck domain rereoll if needs be. The other hates the fact that folks worshipping a god have to memorize spells ahead of time. To him, this change better represents how those praying for miracles would receive them; on the fly and not always when you ask for it.

Okay, they like it. I simply said it would drive me nuts. And it would.

You don't have to play my way if you don't want to, but don't insult the system if the players using it enjoy it.

I haven't insulted anything. I said that I wouldn't play it. And that it's simply a different method of fudging from the personal method of fudging that I employ, and no better.

There's a big difference between fudging and an optional rules mechanic.

No, there isn't.

Fudging implies that you push the dice roll whatever way you want, ignoring the mechanical rules of the game. That is NOT what action points and luck attributes do. Luck and action points add the "heroic luck" factor that you often see in movies. Again, you show me a movie where they consistently get a character resurrected (and please don't mention the quest for spock) and I will gladly give your argument a bone.

"Heroic luck" is fudging by another name.

But to answer your question:

Conan got resurrected in the Conan movies. Gandalf got resurrected. Jesus got resurrected, and so far, his book is the best-selling book of all time. Several movies adaptions, too.

Oh, but you want "consistently." Talk about stacking the deck.

Characters get resurrected in Stargate SG-1. Maybe you've heard of it. Star Wars has the bactine tank. Want to go to books? Ever heard of Stephen Brust? There are special soul-sucking weapons to prevent the process.

Shall I go on? And yes, in SG-1, the Egyptian coffins get used very regularly. I like how you chucked the "consistently" in there and then make me choose a movie, which is 2 to 3 hours long. It's a silly proposal, and I fulfilled it, anyway.

So my argument gets a bone.

Now, action points and fate cards ( or whatever you use) are limited. Players only get a certain amount and even then only at certain times (usually once per limited). They have set limits, in particular a die roll to increase a save or multiple cards to stabilize or reroll a stabilization. This is the most accurate way to replicate the "how'd the heck that hero stave off the poison" scenes you often see in movies and such. It's the thing in my games that separates the heroes from the common mooks.

I've never played in a campaign with unlimited access to True Resurrections, and I've played the game up to level 35. Sooner or later, you run out of resources.

I'm not saying you should use my way, or change your own. But you're simply fudging by another means, and honesty asks that you admit that.

Again, I can't think of a non dungeons and dragons media where easy to use resurrection is appart of the story. I'd like to say it makes it more of a board game, but there are few board games with the light penalties as d and d's resurrection rules. Done right, the resurrection rules should not be a problem, but dms and players who use them often abuse them. A good story telling DM would probably only allow it less than 5 percent of the time if they consider the concept of the character "wanting" to come back. Only someone playing a game would think their character would voluntarily leave bliss for the mortal world.

Stephen Brust and Stargate SG-1 come readily to mind.

It doesn't make anything into a board game, or even a video game. These mechanics have been around since 1st Edition AD&D. The reason you see a similarity is because those games grew out of D&D, not because D&D is somehow descending to their level.

A good storytelling DM can use resurrections all the time, and still make the story flow and the dangers real. I know, because I am a good DM, and that is exactly what I do. I am aware that there are good DMs who use different means than mine to accomplish enjoyable games. Apparently, you have yet to learn this truth.

 

[Storyteller01]

But to answer your question:

Conan got resurrected in the Conan movies. Gandalf got resurrected. Jesus got resurrected, and so far, his book is the best-selling book of all time. Several movies adaptions, too.

Oh, but you want "consistently." Talk about stacking the deck.

Characters get resurrected in Stargate SG-1. Maybe you've heard of it. Star Wars has the bactine tank. Want to go to books? Ever heard of Stephen Brust? There are special soul-sucking weapons to prevent the process.

All of these are specialized circumstances that happen due to the story itself.

-Conan: not really familiar with that one.

-Gandalf: Demigod brought back by higher powers.

-Jesus: God goes home (not going into religious debate here).

-SG-1: Technology used by beings believed to be gods, with uses limited to location, dealing with the owners (favors owed, making enemies with owners enemies, some quest, etc), as well as number of units (the To' Kra apparently don't have one).

Even Stargate: Atlantis can't make full use of the cities medical facilties, and the friendly aliens (Asgard in particular) tacticly avoid giving away similar equipment.

-Bacta Tanks: Tanks don't work once you've degraded past a certain point. The rebelion would have gone much differently if it did. Might explain where all the strom troopes went though...

None of the above examples match D&D's 'there's a character in the party with knowledge and a rare gem' or 'the church in the next city will do it for 5,250 gp [or 10,490 gp]'. The first is less than the cost of a +2 weapon, the second not much more.

 

[DonTadow]

It's fudging. Call it what you want, or define it how you wish. Your characters, in the end, are alive when they should be dead. They simply arrived there by a different means than the characters in my campaigns. There is nothing "free" about resurrection.



Okay. You don't want stories like that, and you feel that it improves the quality of your games. If you were merely speaking about your games, and not stating larger implications on the nature of other people's games in which you have not played, then there would be no problem here. Different strokes for different folks, and all that.



Okay, they like it. I simply said it would drive me nuts. And it would.



I haven't insulted anything. I said that I wouldn't play it. And that it's simply a different method of fudging from the personal method of fudging that I employ, and no better.



No, there isn't.



"Heroic luck" is fudging by another name.

But to answer your question:

Conan got resurrected in the Conan movies. Gandalf got resurrected. Jesus got resurrected, and so far, his book is the best-selling book of all time. Several movies adaptions, too.

Oh, but you want "consistently." Talk about stacking the deck.

Characters get resurrected in Stargate SG-1. Maybe you've heard of it. Star Wars has the bactine tank. Want to go to books? Ever heard of Stephen Brust? There are special soul-sucking weapons to prevent the process.

Shall I go on? And yes, in SG-1, the Egyptian coffins get used very regularly. I like how you chucked the "consistently" in there and then make me choose a movie, which is 2 to 3 hours long. It's a silly proposal, and I fulfilled it, anyway.

So my argument gets a bone.



I've never played in a campaign with unlimited access to True Resurrections, and I've played the game up to level 35. Sooner or later, you run out of resources.

I'm not saying you should use my way, or change your own. But you're simply fudging by another means, and honesty asks that you admit that.



Stephen Brust and Stargate SG-1 come readily to mind.

It doesn't make anything into a board game, or even a video game. These mechanics have been around since 1st Edition AD&D. The reason you see a similarity is because those games grew out of D&D, not because D&D is somehow descending to their level.

As for your examples.

A good storytelling DM can use resurrections all the time, and still make the story flow and the dangers real. I know, because I am a good DM, and that is exactly what I do. I am aware that there are good DMs who use different means than mine to accomplish enjoyable games. Apparently, you have yet to learn this truth.

Have you been stuck in d20 all of your life? This mechanic is used in various other games such as Shadowrun, battletech and Serenity Firefly. The introduction of a separate hero dice pool is nothing new to rpgs and has been used for 2 decades. Call a cat a dog to prove your point but comparing action/fate points to fudging shows a naivety and lack of knowledge of RPG history.

IN your examples, think about how special and important those things were when it happens. Heck one spawned a whole religion. Your examples really point to the effect of how special ressurection is. Again though, give me one example of a media where it is repeated. Even with STargate, Dr. Jackson has repeatedly stated how much he gave up to come back and escape death.

Again, your 1st edition remark is another good example. Remember, the first edition of the game spawned from wargaming, where it was customary to have a mechanic to gain more units/troops. I'd like to think the game has evolved past the typical board game mechanics over the last three decades.

It comes down to suspension of belief, which in a fantasy realm is already pretty high. My players are too much into logical stories to believe in a world of ressurection "laws" and spells.