Is RAISE DEAD (etc.) too readily available in most D&D campaigns?

[S'mon]

I wonder: Those who want coming back from the dead to be rare/extremely difficult -- is character death equally rare? Is this because your Players are especially good at staying alive, very lucky, or does the DM "cheat" either by fudging directly or by giving the PCs some kind of "get out of death" gimmick (luck/action points)?

I can't imagine a game being fun if death is as common as the "default" D&D game, but raising as rarer/more difficult than the "default" D&D game.

In my experience, character death is not rare (peg it at "uncommon" , so I like to have ways back from death to be available.

Quasqueton

I think PC death is too easy at low levels, and I like PC death to be rare at all levels, reducing the need for Raise Dead. I like the idea of altering RD to be "Cure Mortal Wounds", my own approach is to use Fate Points and/or saving throws to avoid death.

 

[DonTadow]

Depends on what you value more: role-playing, game, or story.

Never thought of it like that, but you are absolutely right. I'm more inclined to limit raise dead and resurrect.

 

[DonTadow]

I wonder: Those who want coming back from the dead to be rare/extremely difficult -- is character death equally rare? Is this because your Players are especially good at staying alive, very lucky, or does the DM "cheat" either by fudging directly or by giving the PCs some kind of "get out of death" gimmick (luck/action points)?

I can't imagine a game being fun if death is as common as the "default" D&D game, but raising as rarer/more difficult than the "default" D&D game.

In my experience, character death is not rare (peg it at "uncommon" , so I like to have ways back from death to be available.

Quasqueton

D and D is still a game. And one of the main goals for a player should be not to die. If players are dying all the time, left and right there's a Play problem or a dm problem. The game is not designed to "consistently" lose, considering the high sacrifices for non altered raise spells. Making Raise Dead more difficult (must be done in a temple, must be done a certain time after death (one hour, one day, one week) and characters who are raised from the dead come back "different" (for buffy fans think of the sixth season). To offset the balance the players receive action cards that allow them to boost and reroll rolls. This eliminates the "reason" a player dies on bad luck. Case in point, a player died htis weekend from -35 damage, this was a player move in that the player refused to give up or retreat for the good of the party. A rare death that depended onthe players moves, not luck or "dm shinanigans". However, in the same game a player was killed to -22 damage because of a failed fortitude roll. He had two action cards and used it to add 5(1d6) to his roll and escape a fiery death.

I have a hard time conceptually visualizing a world with easy raise dead, because no one with money and power would die, eventually leading to over population. Soon diamonds would become more expensive and rare. Sure PCs lose a level, but who cares how many levels are loss to an NPC who doesn't adventure.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Raise dead is one of the spells that, IMO, makes D&D less than what I want in a fantasy RPG. (Teleport is another one, just for information's sake.)

In my game, raise dead has been replaced by a version of revivify with a limit on time "dead" measured in rounds per caster level. (By the book, revivify must be cast within one round of death.) Resurrection's been replaced by resuscitation, with a grace period in minutes. Both spells are necromantic spells, being more concerned with actually sustaining a dying body than restoring life to a truly dead one. True resurrection and (for various in-game reasons) reincarnate remain as per RAW.

Revivify or resuscitation, if cast within a grace period of rounds, results in no loss of level or ability score. The stronger spell, if minutes pass before casting, results in a loss of 2 points of Constitution, Intelligence, or Wisdom, determined randomly.

 

[mmadsen]

I look at Raise Dead as a tool for character continuity, to deal with the higher lethality of higher levels.

Yes, raise dead is clearly a tool for character continuity -- but is it the best tool? I think the real problem is declaring characters dead, which is generally understood to be permanent, and then undoing it with a less-than-epic spell. Shouldn't it be much, much easier to incapacitate characters without necessarily killing them?

 

[Desdichado]

I wonder: Those who want coming back from the dead to be rare/extremely difficult -- is character death equally rare? Is this because your Players are especially good at staying alive, very lucky, or does the DM "cheat" either by fudging directly or by giving the PCs some kind of "get out of death" gimmick (luck/action points)?

Not really common, no. I don't like frequent character deaths in my campaign for all the reasons mentioned already in this thread.

HOWEVER, I also don't like the ease of a "get out of death free" card. To me, a big part of what makes the game fun is indeed flirting with PC death. If I knew that 1) it was almost impossible for my PC to actually die, due to Fate Points (ala WFRP), DM fiat, or whatever other reason, the game isn't very fun for me anymore. It's a bit like playing Doom on God-mode; it gets boring very fast. If PC death is--at worst--a minor setback because you can be rezzed easily, then I feel the same way.

No risk = no fun for me.

I can't imagine a game being fun if death is as common as the "default" D&D game, but raising as rarer/more difficult than the "default" D&D game.

I feel the exact opposite. I think the impact of character turnover as wreaking havoc on storylines, the roleplaying experience, etc. is pretty strongly overstated in this thread, at least in my experience.

In my experience, character death is not rare (peg it at "uncommon" , so I like to have ways back from death to be available.

If we're trying to peg PC death as comparable to availability of D&D minis, I'd say in our campaigns they range from uncommon to rare. That includes campaigns in d20 Modern, Call of Cthulhu, Star Wars, Top Secret SI, and others, where resurrection is flat out not an option.

 

[Azgulor]

I think it's too easy. I like there to be a lingering consequence for character death, to make it more meaningful.

Heroes of Horror and a recent Dragon issue had some ideas to help correct this.

This would make Raise Dead a little easier to tolerate for me. Every D&D campaign I've run has lost steam at higher levels (9+). When I've asked players as to why, the most frequent complaints were:
1- Raise dead. There is no fear of losing a character. Actually, no fear of losing multiple charcters, so long as some can bring (or arrange to bring) the others back. Character death becomes a nuissance, an annoyance where the PC is forced to have their character sit out for a while.
2- Teleport. The danger of the journey disappears. The race against time evaporates and every tactical encounter is undermined (I've been told this even when it's working to the PC'S advantage!). Everything devolves down to hit-and-run 'port in and attack, 'port out when/if things get rough.

I'm aware there are multiple in-game ways of dealing with these types of complaints. I've used them. This then leads to complaint #3. The versimmiltude of the game world suffers. Big time. Players begin to think back on past events and retroactively discuss how the tactics of higher level foes or allies should have been handled differently. They don't want a world that "scales with them" - meaning the world works differently as they rise in level. They wanted consistency.

This is what ultimately drove me away from D&D. I'll only play RAW core D&D if I have to. Variant magic systems such as those found in True Sorcery, Grim Tales, Thieves' World, Sovereign Stone, and Elements of Magic are what I prefer. They give me the ability to use what I want, scale what I need to, and drop what I don't want to use.

Azgulor

 

[Treebore]

In my games it is present exactly how much I want it to be. I also frequently have Reincarnation used, too.

Other DM's don't have it available readily enough. It seems like running a fantasy game is ruined by allowing people be brought back to life. I say having a character the player likes die permanently sucks, and ruins the fun of the game far more.

Then the there is the player who likes the fact that the character died, so they can try out a new one they have been itching to try.

If a DM doesn't went an endless cycly of being raised dead use a rule from the older editions. You can only be raised a number of times equal to your starting constitution score. Or my house rule version, number of raises is equal to 1/2 your starting CON score. How do I justify this rule? One, because I am the DM and I want it. Two, gods in my campaign world have real power, so its obvious that they had a huge organizational meeting and decided they would enforce this "Raise Limit", and also set some rules for their Poker games while they were at it.

So no matter how high your CON gets, if you start with a 12 CON you can only be Raised 6 times in my games. Then Reincarnation is your only option.

 

[DethStryke]

This just came up in my weekly D&D game - the party rogue got separated from the main group and was smacked with an AOO as he tried to retreat that dropped him past -10. We were able to retrieve the body, but we're only 3-4th level. We really like the character and the storylines regarding him, so the group decided they wanted to look into getting him raised/revived/whatever.

Raise dead in 3.5 requires any number of diamonds that total in value of 5k gp (as has been pointed out) so that was pretty much a non-conversation. I've never had a character with that much disposable income in a D&D game until past 8th level or so. It pretty much made it an impossibility for us without some Deus Ex Machina type revival.

What we did find is that Reincarnate is only 1k gp. If you don't mind changing races that can be a serious boon! He was a human previous to the spell - now he's an elf. Mental abilities stay the same, but physicals change... so you could technically come out better than what you started with in regards to pure ability scores. He had a bounty on his head from a thieves guild in town, so that also fixed that problem!

The devil is in the details, obviously. Reincarnate calls for Rare oils and herbs... so "Rare" being whatever the DM decides it is. This could be something that requires a whole other quest or is simply something you have to be in a large city to obtain. Raise Dead & the higher cleric versions are very expensive and require components that, while one could argue are more common, could be determined to be rare in the same vein. If you actually are in a game that doesn't ignore casting materials / read spell descriptions completely and isn't on a Monty Haul path, then I can't really agree that they are too easy to come by.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Raise dead in 3.5 requires any number of diamonds that total in value of 5k gp (as has been pointed out) so that was pretty much a non-conversation. I've never had a character with that much disposable income in a D&D game until past 8th level or so. It pretty much made it an impossibility for us without some Deus Ex Machina type revival.

That price tag gets ignored a lot in these conversations, actually. Even if your DM makes the spell available for casting, 5k is a lot until you're pretty significantly mid-level. And that assumes that the spell is cast for free (most clerics-for-hire- would also charge the standard spellcasting fee).