Is RAISE DEAD (etc.) too readily available in most D&D campaigns?

[Korgoth]

My main concerns with the whole affair are world-building concerns. I can't consistently explain why Good King Graybeard doesn't just get raised after 'tragically' dying in battle. I know, I know... if I want him dead I should have somebody disintegrate him or something. But I often don't do "over the top": I like the idea of him dying from sword wounds inflicted when joined personal combat with the enemy king (who may not even be magical or evil in nature).

There is the whole question of "maybe he wouldn't want to come back", and there's definite merit to that, especially if he's in some sort of heaven. But then the peasants will be calling him "Selfish King Graybeard", whether it's strictly true or not. IOW, it becomes a different kind of tragedy. And then there's the question of evil and neutral kings: they'll always want to come back.

Different people do different styles. I don't do "comic book". But this is one place where the rules are pretty comic book.

 

[Wolfwood2]

My main concerns with the whole affair are world-building concerns. I can't consistently explain why Good King Graybeard doesn't just get raised after 'tragically' dying in battle. I know, I know... if I want him dead I should have somebody disintegrate him or something. But I often don't do "over the top": I like the idea of him dying from sword wounds inflicted when joined personal combat with the enemy king (who may not even be magical or evil in nature).

You just gave me an awesome idea for dealing with that sort of thing, that I don't believe I've ever seen proposed before.

Place a minimum level requirement on being raised from the dead.

See, most people don't have strong enough spirits to survive being summoned back from the dead. Only truly 'great souls' (higher leveled people) can manage it. And the majority of people in D&D-land, even kings, never get high enough level to benefit from it.

That means low level PCs can't be raised, but low level PCs are less likely to be raised anyway. I'd put the level cap at maybe 8th level or so. You could even make it graduated, so that you have to be 12th to be resurrected and 16th to be True Ressurected.

Why wasn't Good King Graybeard raised? Because he was only 7th level. Or he was 10th level, and his head was cut off, making the body not intact.

 

[Desdichado]

I could live with that.

But to be honest with you, I'd rather just have my fantasy "this is how the world works" philosophy not have to be built on the assumptions that D&D offers. It's easier to tweak a few things in the rules, or handwave them and tell the verisimilitude police to take a hike than it is to go to all that effort.

Of my preferred option; replace D&D magic with something else entirely.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Doesn't this seem to make the PCs too special. Shouldn't there be millions of other people who "know people". There'd probably never be a villian who didnt come back.

It depends. Usually killing a BBEG is a "TPK" for the bad guys. There's not a lot of coming back from that. Also, most enemies of the PCs are Outsiders, so they can't be brought back without a wish or miracle which are much harder to achieve.

Besides, the game is very politically oriented. Today's enemy can be tomorrow's ally. The PCs have actually been aided by former enemies they've killed who have been brought back to life and aided enemies who formerly killed them.

 

[Storyteller01]

Why should coming back from the dead go beyond that? It does, in my game, because of flavor issues, but that's because of particular tastes of mine. I don't in any way think that my tastes mean that coming back from the dead should necessarily be very difficult or near impossible in every game or even in the core rules.

So I'm curious - why do you think coming back from the dead should be so difficult? Magic in the rules consistently makes things that are difficult or impossible in our reality quite easy to achieve. Why draw the line here, with the issue of raising from the dead?

Then there's no risk, no heroic endeavor. What's the point of facing BBEG's or ending a campaign on that final telling adventure if your players say 'meh... Make sure to bring you bring a few diamoonds, just in case...'?

YMMV

 

[shilsen]

Then there's no risk, no heroic endeavor. What's the point of facing BBEG's or ending a campaign on that final telling adventure if your players say 'meh... Make sure to bring you bring a few diamoonds, just in case...'?

YMMV

And apparently does

Is death the only risk in your game? Since you say that easy return from the dead means there's "no risk," I assume so. IMC, PCs don't die, but there are a very large number of risks and repercussions for defeat. In fact, while I joke that I don't kill PCs permanently because that means they've escaped, it's partly serious. Permanent death is an easy way out. If that doesn't exist, then PCs have to live with the repercussions of their actions.

Plus, since this is a game and the characters don't exist and the players do, the only real risk of permanent death is the risk of not getting to continue playing your current PC. After all, the player will presumably continue playing in the game with a different PC. So the results of the risk are totally being borne by the player and not the character. It just seems a really strange definition and form of risk to me.

 

[I'm A Banana]

My main concerns with the whole affair are world-building concerns. I can't consistently explain why Good King Graybeard doesn't just get raised after 'tragically' dying in battle. I know, I know... if I want him dead I should have somebody disintegrate him or something. But I often don't do "over the top": I like the idea of him dying from sword wounds inflicted when joined personal combat with the enemy king (who may not even be magical or evil in nature).

There is the whole question of "maybe he wouldn't want to come back", and there's definite merit to that, especially if he's in some sort of heaven. But then the peasants will be calling him "Selfish King Graybeard", whether it's strictly true or not. IOW, it becomes a different kind of tragedy. And then there's the question of evil and neutral kings: they'll always want to come back.

Different people do different styles. I don't do "comic book". But this is one place where the rules are pretty comic book.

Totally understandable. The existence of easy reviving definitely at the very least forces a sort of magical arms race where more effort and more magic and more power is required to keep the guy dead. And that's not cool for all campaigns, however much you gain from the PC side of it.

I like the level limit idea (or even base it on base Fort save, or Con score, to base it more in something concrete). IMC, if I need King Graybeard dead, I've got no real problem with justifying it with the magical arms race. I'd rather have enemies employ necromancy, disintegration, dismemberment, and [death] effects than get rid of the character plotlines and drive with a few unfortunate rolls.

I think, no matter your position, it's key to have resurrection as easily available as death. If death happens often, resurrection should happen often. And death happens often in core D&D, especially at high levels, especially with adventurous parties.

 

[VirgilCaine]

Whether it is too readily available all depends on who controls the diamond mines in the campaign world.

Which, if you have really evil gods that none of the other gods like (and thus clerics of those gods people feel the same way about), should be the churches of Good deities.

All diamonds will be stockpiled for "heroes of the church" to be resurrected.
Which, if the appropriate level Good or Neutral PCs (who aren't explicitly affiliated with a church) are KIA while performing a task of appropriate worth, churches will pitch in with some diamonds for the resurrection, and recognize the PCs as such. It's like getting military decorations from allied foreign countries.

More likely, the PCs should be Reincarnated by a druid. Much less expensive and much more commonly used than the cleric spells.

If bad guys want to be resurrected, they'll find an evil Druid or an Evil cleric and Plane Shift to the Elemental Plane of Earth and find a nice Dao diamond dealer who hopefully won't rip you off.

 

[Hussar]

My main concerns with the whole affair are world-building concerns. I can't consistently explain why Good King Graybeard doesn't just get raised after 'tragically' dying in battle. I know, I know... if I want him dead I should have somebody disintegrate him or something. But I often don't do "over the top": I like the idea of him dying from sword wounds inflicted when joined personal combat with the enemy king (who may not even be magical or evil in nature).

There is the whole question of "maybe he wouldn't want to come back", and there's definite merit to that, especially if he's in some sort of heaven. But then the peasants will be calling him "Selfish King Graybeard", whether it's strictly true or not. IOW, it becomes a different kind of tragedy. And then there's the question of evil and neutral kings: they'll always want to come back.

Different people do different styles. I don't do "comic book". But this is one place where the rules are pretty comic book.

But, again, there are so many ways around this. Kill the enemy king in combat, and take his head home samurai style. Poof, need Ressurection at least to bring him back. Heck, taking the heads of your enemy is hardly "comic book", and mutilating the dead was done in many, many cultures. Perhaps enemies killed in single combat like that are cremated. At the very least, you don't give the body back. Winner take all and all that.

There, now you need True Res to bring back that king. And, again, that's not all that difficult to block.

People make things far more difficult than they need to be. Simply following the rules works most of the time.

 

[molonel]

I want death to be a real factor in my campaign, not a speed bump for the adventure. As a whole, clerics have to make Will saves to cast spells. On the flip side, I've used god roll rules (kind of like get out of jail free cards, once per game day) that the players can use to stay alive that much longer.

See this, to me, is like the people who say, "I run low magic games, but then I pepper the treasure hoards with non-magical +3 weapons that I call Lunar Steel" or somesuch. You have Raise Deads, Resurrections and True Resurrections, but you simply call it something else.

Use whatever you want, and call it whatever you want, but I've played with the 3rd Edition rules and only modified the XP hit, and my players still talk about the times they've had to bring someone back from the dead. The rules are a coat rack to hang you story on. The mechanics work just fine, and have never felt like a video game or putting the game on save, or cranking quarters in.

The though of having clerics roll Will saves just to cast their spells strikes me as extreme micromanagement on a level that would drive me to seek another game, if I had a DM do that.