Is "skilled guy" a good character class?

[Vespucci]

Baden-Powell was 100% prepared, 24/7, long before Batman was invented.

Additionally, we can estimate B-P's minimum level more easily. Around 1909, he was in epic levels, with a leadership score of 40 (with both Epic Leadership and Legendary Commander). Given that B-P didn't have access to magic items, he needs to get 25 Charisma from somewhere just to get Epic Leadership. So that's 18+5 through to 20th level, Great Charisma at 21st, +1 Charisma at 24th. Using 3.X's standard 11, B-P is probably a ranger, so his bonus feats won't help. That means Epic Leadership at 24th level, and Legendary Commander at 27th. This would leave him 6 leadership too low for all those followers! So I'd estimate BP's minimum level c. 1909 at 31st. You can probably wind that down a bit with Prestige Classes, but bear in mind that he need to get a lot of skills that aren't on the Ranger's list.

One wonders why HMG didn't just unleash Baden-Powell on the battlefield!

Or perhaps they did. By 1929, his leadership score has increased to 60. I'd estimate him as needing to be about 46th level to qualify for that, assuming that he's spamming Great Charisma as often as possible and never increases anything else with his 1/4 adjustments. At less than a level a year, he's hardly doing hardcore adventuring, but it's still pretty phenomenal.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Cone hat cuts off line of effect from Dimension Lock and other anti-teleportation spells. If you're talking about a situation where DM fiat says "teleportation does not work, no ands, ifs, or buts," you could always escape by burrowing through the earth via polymorphing into the correct form, etheralness, or something else creative.

The "no teleport" zones I'm thinking of were from big published releases (I think Undermountain and/or WBD had them) and allowed not T-porting of any kind. They may have also been a bar against anything that went across dimensions, like astral or ethereal effects. (I don't know for sure, but I was expecting encounters with foes of that kind, but they never...*ahem*...materialized.)

1. Who said anything about retreating? Teleport out refers to teleporting out from under the cone hat. You can still end up in the field of battle. For example, if you're being ambushed in the open plane, you could TP up a few hundred feet and rock the battlefield with spells from the high ground.

Sorry- wasn't clear- the AMZ was a permanent installation ahead of the party. To be in the field of battle was to be in the AMZ. And since the AMZ was installed in a choke point designed to cope with foes mundane & magical, there was no "high ground" outside of the AMZ.

Essentially, it was a killzone for the entryway to a subterranean keep.

(Keep in mind, this was something I was adventuring in, not DMing.)

In fact, if you stow some Shrink Item'd boulders in your spell component pouch and use the rules saying retrieving spell components is a free action, as is releasing held items, you could conceivably start dive bombing the fool who used an AMF on you, since the Shrink Item will wear off once it hits the AMF.

I've used that tactic...along with barrels of oil and bonfires too. When all that hits the boulders, you get a nice burning cairn.

But if you don't have room to fly, it doesn't work so well.

I figure the Greater Stone Golem covers what comes up in "etc".

Again, no T-port effects worked...

But I wouldn't be surprised to find they had something in mind for constructs anyway, if you could get yours there. Who knows, perhaps the statuary at the gate wasn't statuary. We didn't try anything that would have let us find out.

(...though, years later, I did exactly that for an adventure I was DMing.)

I can believe that. I'm not saying a rogue couldn't do it, but I do believe that if you're going to take it to the max, the side with more spellcasting power comes out on top. Someone who can Plane Shift to a plane where 1 year of time equates to 1 round on the Material Plane and who has spells that allow him to play a game of 20 questions with deities is going to be hard to surprise.

Granted, very few people actually play this way...

Very few indeed...but they do exist, much like Tucker's Kobolds. And like those little SoBs, they're usually NPCs.

But as for "more magic"- again, I freely conceded the Mage has more by himself than virtually any other PC type. However, which has more magic: a single Mage or a guild of Mage-Slaying assassins (which may or may not have it's own arcanists on the payroll...)?

Batman, if TV tropes is to be believed.

As a longtime fan of Bat's, I can say that while he has a plan for every situation, he cannot be fully prepared to implement them all at any given moment. For example, while he does have a stockpile of kryptonite in case he has to put down a Kryptonian or 2, he does not carry it with him. If Supes or- heaven forfend- a bunch of Kandorians decided to go nuts while Bruce Wayne was in London for business, he'd be unable to simply whip out the ore and take 'em down.

 

[Dandu]

Again, no T-port effects worked...

The Greater Stone Golem comes up when the PAO effect turning him into a comb is suppressed by an AMF. This has nothing to do with teleporting.

But as for "more magic"- again, I freely conceded the Mage has more by himself than virtually any other PC type. However, which has more magic: a single Mage or a guild of Mage-Slaying assassins (which may or may not have it's own arcanists on the payroll...)?

At this point, it's not quote rogue vs mage, and if the rogue is going to bring in his friends, the wizard might as well. I figure a mage's guild will probably have more magic than an assassin's guilde with arcanists if we're really going to debate this point.

At any rate, the rogue isn't good at assassinating wizards by virtue of evasion and stealth skills any more than the monk is a good magekiller because he has all good saves and SR. Planning is the key element here, but that's not really the purview of the rogue class.

If Supes or- heaven forfend- a bunch of Kandorians decided to go nuts while Bruce Wayne was in London for business, he'd be unable to simply whip out the ore and take 'em down.

Batman The Brave and the Bold gives us this conversation:
Jaime: OK OK, here's one. Poison Ivy has used her Mind Control spores on Superman to pit him against Batman. Oh, and Batman has no kryptonite. Who wins?
Paco: Easy: Superman.
Jaime: Wrong, Batman, by using his kryptonite.
Paco: You just said he had no kryptonite.
Jaime: Trick question. Batman always has kryptonite.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

At this point, it's not quote rogue vs mage,

Sure it is.

First, the Mage has his own support personnel- those who supply him with reagents an spell components, those from whom he gets the finely cut diamonds to use for stoneskin, etc. The rogue's support network is informants, weaponmakers and alchemists (possibly even the same ones who work with the mage) for things like poisons and the like. The Mage buys components, the rogue buys gear.

Second, using the Guild's resources to help take down a hard target- and no one will argue that a competent Mage is anything but- is EXACTLY what a smart Guild assassin would do. It's what successful Gather Info skill checks would tell him to do.

Seal Team 6 didn't jus rush in shooting once they figured out where UBL was hiding, they plotted, planned, trained and chose specialized transport and gear for the job over the course of many months.

Why wouldn't a smart, highly trained assassin prepare just as thoroughly? When hunting Mages, you don't just go get a butterknife and go to his house.

As for B:tBatB, all superhero properties on TV or the movies take liberties to make their own history which may or may not be somewhere in the same neighborhood as comic book canon. Most recent example: go see the new X-Men movie. Or go watch the classic Star Trek cartoon where Kirk dealt with Kzinti and other creations from Larry Niven's Known Universe stories.

TL; DR: I'll go with the comics over the cartoons.*












* that said, comic canon may change every 5-10 years or so, depending on on the company.

 

[Dandu]

So what you're arguing is that it is still 'rogue vs mage' because, despite the number of people directly involved in planning, spying, and etc, on the rogue's end, it's still the rogue who is an active force in the assassination.

Alright, but if we're going to bring in support networks, the mage has a mage's guild, who will try to keep its valuable members alive - and no one will argue that a competent Mage is anything but - which would make things tremendously more difficult for an assassin since these are the kind of people who tear reality a new one in under six seconds and hobnob with extraplanar beings on a daily basis.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

All true, which is why only the rarest and most specialized of guilds would even take such a contract in the first place.

And as I pointed out before, there was a traitor of sorts already involved: the person who took out the contract in the first place was a fellow Mage of similar power...

 

[Dandu]

This does lead back to the point that was made earlier about how this still has nothing to do with how the rogue's class features (sneak attack, stealth, etc) are good at magekilling, since being part of a guild is not a class feature.

 

[kitcik]

This does lead back to the point that was made earlier about how this still has nothing to do with how the rogue's class features (sneak attack, stealth, etc) are good at magekilling, since being part of a guild is not a class feature.

I am glad I read to the end of the thread before replying because THAT'S WHAT I WAS GOING TO SAY.

[MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION], you make a good case for "under exceptional circumstances, a rogue could be a threat to a mage." You make no case for:

"{Rogues} are also good against the wizard due to that pesky evasion and hide/move silently/stealth.

If attacked by a rogue {wizards} are in trouble (sneak attack) but they can lay into a fighter with a more than fair chance of winning."

 

[Dandu]

Basically, what the rogue gets are useful skills. Social abilities, stealth, evasion and UMD make him better at killing a wizard compared to, say, a figther, but worse than if, say, a full spellcaster was doing it. (Whom, incidentally, I classify as good at this sort of thing.)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

This does lead back to the point that was made earlier about how this still has nothing to do with how the rogue's class features (sneak attack, stealth, etc) are good at magekilling, since being part of a guild is not a class feature.

Any thief is going to have a support network- Guild or not- and his skillS will play into his approach to the kill.

Gather Info, Knowledge and possibly Intimidate will let him learn about his target. Bluff & Disguise, properly done, may aid in this as well, and could also help him get close to his target. Search and Disable Device may help him get past magical safeguards to let him add or subtract things from his target's surroundings or person with Pickpocket. Sneak Attack- especially reinforced by specially chosen equipment- will let him maximize his chances of completing his mission. UMD opens a lot of options on gear. Poison use- if he's trained- opens up other options still.