D&D General Is Spelljammer really that bad?

[Maxperson]

Ship combat and Ship movement is not setting material. That is mechanics. This is like saying that Faerun is a terrible setting because of the ship combat rules (since they mostly the same rules) that has nothing to do with the setting.

That's wrong. Ship movement and combat rules are setting for SHIP settings like Spelljammer, pirate settings, etc. It's core to what the setting is. Much of the setting is literally the ships.

And, whether or not 5 pages (5 pages!!!) matters is how good those pages are. And they are really good. I've got a solid idea of how to run those adventures. I don't need another ten pages, I've got plenty.

Cool. Many of us disagree with the last word.

Sure, it gives us a bit more insanity and pride for him, but I don't need that. And again, you are going at this as "There is a correct way, because there was an old version of the setting." Someone who has never touched or heard of 2e isn't going to be running Large Luigi and thinking "something feels off, it feels like I'm missing some massive gap about this character" . No, they are going to be running him, and they will be running him correctly for their game, because we have plenty of information.

You have sparse information. You can run him based on limited, "He knows a lot.", sure. That's not really enough to tell you about him. You'll have to make that up which means 12 DMs will have 12 different Luigis.

Try and stop thinking about 2e and look at the 5e Spelljammer as if it was the first version of the setting. Because for many people? It is.

I am. Or more accurately I'm looking at it from both views.

Correct. Would that be a bad thing?

If it's free, no. If I'm paying money to them, yes. If I'm giving them money, I want a complete product. Not one that I have to do a ton of work on to make it work.

Would the setting not work just because a bar existed, but the bartender wasn't listed down explicitly?

The bar is the only thing for me to talk about, because the setting is so sparse it didn't give me any of the TONS of other stuff the 2e setting did.

Plenty of settings have bars with no names. PLenty of settings tell us about a country, and name a capital and never name a single bar in that country. That doesn't make them bad settings

It does make them incomplete, though.

Name 50 locations in Gondor. Middle Earth is a great setting, right? You wouldn't say Middle Earth is a two-dimensional setting with no depth, so if the Lower City of the Rock of Bral (a section of a single city) needs at least 60 locations to be functional, then Gondor should have at least 50 right?

1. Pelargir
2. The palace in Pelargir
3. Ithilien
4. Minas Tirith
5. the tower of the sun
6. The tower of the moon, now Minas Morgul
7. Osgiliath
8. The Argonath
9. the court of the fountain
10. Pelennor Fields
11. The Great Gate
12-18. Each of the 7 walls of Minas Tirith
19. The white tower of Ecthelion
20. The citadel of Minas Tirith
21. The Anduin River
22. The Morgul Road
23. The Dome of Stars in Osgiliath
24. The Great Stone Bridge over the Anduin(Osgiliath)
25. Pinnath Gelin
26. Anfalas
27. Dol Amroth
28. Belfalas
29. Erech
30. Calembel
31. Lebennin
32. Linhir
33. Tolfalas
34. Ethring
35. Lamedon
36. The White Mountains
37. Amyn Arnen
38. The Hills of Agar
39. The fortress in Dol Amroth
40. The Paths of the Dead
41. Henneth Annun
42. The Mountains of Shadow
43. The Forbidden Pool
44. Edhellond
45. Bay of Belfalas
46. Fortress of Belfalas
47. The Anduin Delta
48. Ringlo Vale
49. Blackroot Vale
50. Anorien
51. Iron Saw Peak in the White Mountains
52. Starkhorn Peak in the White Mountains
53-59. The seven warning beacons, Amon Din, Eilenach, Nardol, Erelas, Min-Rimmon, Calenhad and Halifirien.
60. Isengard
61. The Firien Wood
62. The Druadan Forest
63. Cair Andros
64. Mindolluin(mountain in the White Mountains)

I could probably find more, but this is plenty.

Here, I'll make it even easier, 50 locations between Gondor and Rohan.

No need.

 

[Chaosmancer]

It's not terrible, but it's not good, and it's absolutely lacking. The best part is the monster book; the worst is the adventure, which frankly suffers from the new obsession with being able to finish it in a few nights- it's extremely linear, with very little that is actually challenging. There's really not enough detail about the setting itself- it gives a pretty sparse overview of wildspace and the Astral Sea, but not much in terms of locations, interesting things to explore, etc.

I love Spelljammer, but I give 5e's feeble stab at it a C-.

I mean... should you find it challenging? Not only is it an official adventure (often easier because official content assumes no feats), but it is an introductory adventure to the setting. This feels to me very similar to saying that Mines of Phandelver doesn't have much that is actually challenging for you. It isn't meant to. It is meant to be an introduction.

And, in that same vein, yeah, it should be finished rather quickly and it is a bit linear. That fits with being designed as an introduction.

Finally, I again wonder, does not having a list of locations to explore make it a bad setting? I compared Spelljammer to Star Trek in my OP because of this similar vibe of going out and exploring the unknown. If the book listed a bunch of planets everyone knows about it wouldn't feel very much like going out into the unknown. It would be going into the Known. I would have liked a chart that made it easier to quickly generate planets, asteroids, and ghost ships, but I don't think the lack of such a chart should really mean that the setting books are a bad product.

 

[Greg Benage]

Yes, the book doesn't list every single location in all of Spelljammer, but do they need to? Do they actually need to detail hundreds of planets and thousands of ships, or is the fact that we know those things are out there plenty to run the setting?

SWN has tables that assign up to 60 world tags (e.g. Abandoned Colony, Alien Ruins, Altered Humanity, etc.) and the description for each tag provides Enemies, Friends, Complications, Things, and Places. There's a lot more, but just this relatively brief section is enormously useful to a DM who wants to create a universe for his players to explore. You get a similar treatment for Systems, Factions and Adventures, a section on creating aliens and alien societies, etc., and then write ups for a house setting using these tools. It has great, modular organization so you can grab what you need when you need it, without reading through hundreds of pages of stuff just to get to what you want.

Point is, if you provide tools, you don't have to detail "every single location in all of Spelljammer." The more the better (systems, worlds, adventure locations, factions, NPCs, etc.), but the tools also provide huge value by helping DMs create the content they want. The tools are even more important when the product does not provide a lot of canned content.

Spelljammer is thin and shallow on both counts, which is why it's a low-value product. You can say this stuff wouldn't add any value for you (I recognize that you specifically did not say this), but even then, the value of the product isn't increased by its absence. I don't want to read hundreds of pages of setting lore any more than you do, but I do want content I can use when I open my wallet.

I'd also suggest that if you aren't particularly interested in opposing viewpoints on something you love, attend to the wording of your title a bit. "Why Spelljammer is Really Good" might have been a better choice.

 

[Hussar]

Well, so far, from the very limited anecdotes in this thread, those who actually played it and used it, enjoyed it.

Has anyone run this and not enjoyed it? That, to me, would be the strongest condemnation. "It doesn't have X" is not a condemnation. If you want X, add it. It's not like it's all that hard. You can use the published 2e stuff, outside of mechanics, as is. You don't even have to do conversions.

Did pick up a really cool random world generator from Reddit. Will have to go poke around my hard drive when I get home and I'll post it here.

 

[Greg Benage]

Has anyone run this and not enjoyed it?

I'm running a Spelljammer campaign right now. Currently at 6th level. I'm stealing bits and pieces from the adventure where I can.

 

[Hussar]

I'm running a Spelljammer campaign right now. Currently at 6th level. I'm stealing bits and pieces from the adventure where I can.

Sorry, but, are you enjoying it or not?

 

[Greg Benage]

Sorry, but, are you enjoying it or not?

I believe I described it as "low value" and "not good, but not bad." I regret spending money on it, but not enough that I'm raging about it or anything.

 

[Redwizard007]

I obviously prefer more content, but a workable framework and some light lore that I can use as a base is a pretty good deal for $29.99. For double that, I had to pass.

Ship to ship combat with maneuvering rules would have probably sucked me in. So would a 100 page monstrous compendium, a few dozen roughly designed planets, or detailed factions. As it stands, I can spend a few hour googling fluff and build the rest as I need it.

 

[the Jester]

I mean... should you find it challenging? Not only is it an official adventure (often easier because official content assumes no feats), but it is an introductory adventure to the setting. This feels to me very similar to saying that Mines of Phandelver doesn't have much that is actually challenging for you. It isn't meant to. It is meant to be an introduction.

I think LMoP is a far better, and far more challenging, adventure than the Spelljammer one.

And, in that same vein, yeah, it should be finished rather quickly and it is a bit linear. That fits with being designed as an introduction.

I reject the proposition that an introduction should necessarily be quick and linear.

Finally, I again wonder, does not having a list of locations to explore make it a bad setting? I compared Spelljammer to Star Trek in my OP because of this similar vibe of going out and exploring the unknown. If the book listed a bunch of planets everyone knows about it wouldn't feel very much like going out into the unknown. It would be going into the Known. I would have liked a chart that made it easier to quickly generate planets, asteroids, and ghost ships, but I don't think the lack of such a chart should really mean that the setting books are a bad product.

It should have something meaty in it. If not more setting, it should at a minimum have some way to generate places for the setting. I'm disappointed that there's basically no advice for creating planets, systems, or the like in it, for instance.

I'm not saying that you're wrong to say it's good enough for you. I'm just saying that I find it very, very disappointing, and that, moreover, the things I find disappointing are consistent in recent releases- everything after Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft, which, in contrast, I find fantastic and full of great advice and techniques for running horror games of all kinds. VRGtR was meaty; regardless of how closely it hewed to previous RL material, it provided what you need to run horror. It was like a great hunk of meat dripping with juice. In contrast, the 5e SJ book is like the bones left after you eat a steak: you can get a few scraps from it, but if you're hungry for D&D in space, you basically need to cook a new meal.

 

[Older Beholder]

I checked the reviews on Amazon and it has more than 70% of reviews at 5 stars (from 2200)
So, doesn't seem that bad.

I had a look at Tasha's, and it has over 20,000 reviews and not a single review was under 3 stars.