Pathfinder 1E Is Spring Attack overpowered?

[Tharkon]

It's kind of worthless if you go by "official" rulings now.

Best bet?

Just decide that martial classes can move and make a full attack.

Make Spring Attack a move action.

Done.

After all, by the time you can do that feat chain to get at it, the casters are dishing out a LOT more damage and providing a lot more area control.

So basically pounce?


Nah, just port Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz to Pathfinder and be done with it.

 

[XunValdorl_of_Kilsek]

No, it doesn't. It doesn't say that ANYWHERE within the errata. That's your interpretation of the effect of the rule, but I think your interpretation is clearly wrong.

Here are the text of the feats, after errata [which appears in square brackets]:

Spring Attack (Combat)
You can deftly move up to a foe, strike, and withdraw before he can react.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: [As a full-round action] you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn.
Normal: You cannot move before and after an attack.

Now, that doesn't mean that a spring attack itself is a full round action (in and of itself). It means that you can Move - make a single melee attack - and move again. That's the full-round-action at issue. so the question is, is a vital strike a "single melee attack"?

Gee. Let's look at the text of Vital Strike:

Vital Strike (Combat)
You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6. Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. [Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as f laming), precision based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.]

There is nothing in Vital Strike that says that it is a "standard" action which is special and more expansive than what it states. It states it is a single melee attack. It makes reference to the "attack action", A single melee attack is what you are supposed to be able to do with Spring Attack. It's in yellow and clear as a bell. When you make a single melee attack - yes that's a standard action. But that is not, in and of itself, excluded by the text of Spring Attack.

So after you misinterpret the effect of a rule, you then dismiss what one of the two main developers says about your interpretation and call their interpretation a "house rule?" Suggesting your own, less nuanced approach, is more authoritative?

o_0

If you want to pretend the comments from two main rules guys for Paizo aren't "official" and are instead just "house rules"? Uhm... I think you need to step back a little and reconsider whose view might be more authoritative on this subject. Because as between your view and James Jacobs? He's got the credentials and you don't.

Alternatively, you might just reconsider your position on this and admit the possibility that your interpretation is plainly and simply flat-out wrong.

Jason Bulmahn, lead designer of Pathfinder, has said the two do "not" work together.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mh5h?Has-there-been-an-official-discussion-on-why#14

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

Which is the reason that if I figure something needs tweaked, I do it myself.

There's a lot of stuff that's been 'official errata' that doesn't make much sense.

I'd rather that the game remain fun for everyone at high levels.

A light fighter/rogue jumping in, making a single attack, and jumping back should fit fine thematically, and should work. Combining it with vital strike seems just a logical choice, after all, Sneak Attack is allowed.

Sometimes I worry that things will be errata'd to the point where you use Spring Attack, jump in, take AoO's, are considered flat footed, and are only allowed to attack with a flyswatter or cribbage board, and then take another AoO when you jump away, and you have no choice but to jump away, and can only jump to a square where an enemy with a readied action is waiting.

Wouldn't want the martial classes to be able to do cool things.

If you want to pretend the comments from two main rules guys for Paizo aren't "official" and are instead just "house rules"? Uhm... I think you need to step back a little and reconsider whose view might be more authoritative on this subject. Because as between your view and James Jacobs? He's got the credentials and you don't.

Alternatively, you might just reconsider your position on this and admit the possibility that your interpretation is plainly and simply flat-out wrong.

I like James Jacobs, he does good work, but at the same time I disagree with a lot of his rulings in the errata, as well as the reasons for them.

Which is why I consider the majority of the errata to come out merely house-rules, and any player who tries to whip out 'official errata' to try to overrule a ruling already in play gets laughed at.

 

[Stormonu]

Hmmm, a monk + rogue could get some real mileage out of Spring Attack + Vital Strike if you allow them to work together, it would seem.

 

[XunValdorl_of_Kilsek]

Which is the reason that if I figure something needs tweaked, I do it myself.

There's a lot of stuff that's been 'official errata' that doesn't make much sense.

I'd rather that the game remain fun for everyone at high levels.

A light fighter/rogue jumping in, making a single attack, and jumping back should fit fine thematically, and should work. Combining it with vital strike seems just a logical choice, after all, Sneak Attack is allowed.

Sometimes I worry that things will be errata'd to the point where you use Spring Attack, jump in, take AoO's, are considered flat footed, and are only allowed to attack with a flyswatter or cribbage board, and then take another AoO when you jump away, and you have no choice but to jump away, and can only jump to a square where an enemy with a readied action is waiting.

Wouldn't want the martial classes to be able to do cool things.



I like James Jacobs, he does good work, but at the same time I disagree with a lot of his rulings in the errata, as well as the reasons for them.

Which is why I consider the majority of the errata to come out merely house-rules, and any player who tries to whip out 'official errata' to try to overrule a ruling already in play gets laughed at.

The reason Sneak Attack works is because it's automatically a part of the attack action while Vital Strike actually uses up an action.

A rogue could use Vital Strike and Sneak Attack together but not with Spring Attack.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

Why not?

What makes sneak attack, which is using an opponents distraction to get a blade into a spot that does more damage (kidney, femoral, one of the big muscle groups) so different than vital strike.

When you get right down to it, Sneak Attack has much more potential for mayhem, once you start stacking multiple dice, additional effects, magical weapons, area control feats, then Vital Strike, especially at high levels.

There's no good reason, logically or thematically, to not allow someone with Vital Strike to use it. Hey, even Sneak Attack + Vital Strike should be fine.

After all, by that time the spellcasters are throwing down huge damage, usually in area of effects, that does damage even on a successful save.

Keep the DPS and ability to act and do cool things equal.

 

[Halivar]

Meh. I am less concerned with what the rules are than what they should be. For me, it makes sense to be able to stack these.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Why not?

What makes sneak attack, which is using an opponents distraction to get a blade into a spot that does more damage (kidney, femoral, one of the big muscle groups) so different than vital strike.

When you get right down to it, Sneak Attack has much more potential for mayhem, once you start stacking multiple dice, additional effects, magical weapons, area control feats, then Vital Strike, especially at high levels.

There's no good reason, logically or thematically, to not allow someone with Vital Strike to use it. Hey, even Sneak Attack + Vital Strike should be fine.

After all, by that time the spellcasters are throwing down huge damage, usually in area of effects, that does damage even on a successful save.

Keep the DPS and ability to act and do cool things equal.

Because Vital Strike requires an "attack action" while Sneak Attack doesn't. Since Spring Attack requires a Full Round Action then you have no room to add any more actions to it. Since Sneak Attack requires no action it stacks.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

Because Vital Strike requires an "attack action" while Sneak Attack doesn't. Since Spring Attack requires a Full Round Action then you have no room to add any more actions to it. Since Sneak Attack requires no action it stacks.

Not exactly. As a Full Round Action you may move, attack, move again.

If you can attack, it is an attack action.

Spring Attack (Combat)
You can deftly move up to a foe, strike, and withdraw before he can react.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: [As a full-round action] you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn.
Normal: You cannot move before and after an attack.

Vital Strike (Combat)
You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6. Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. [Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as f laming), precision based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.

Piazo houserules notwithstanding they stack.

And Sneak Attack costs no action? Really?

 

[GreyLord]

IF you aren't doing PFS official play or Official PF Sanctioned play...play how you want and rule how you want with these rules (and by you, I mean whoever is GMing).

Easiest solution.