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Is the Burning Wheel "how to play" advice useful for D&D?

pemerton

Legend
This "mixed modes of conflict" tangent has also reminded me of the Depression crit table in Rolemaster (I think found in RM Companion 3).

Depression crits inflict penalties to all action.

But mechanically, the only sure way to inflict a Depression crit is using Evil Mentalist attacks. We had an informal practice where, if a player felt that some emotional event would really knock his/her PC about, the PC would voluntarily take a Depression crit of the appropriate severity. (Rolemaster also had Cure Mind Disease spells for recovering from the crit penalty, naturally!)
 

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Nagol

Unimportant
Sorry if I lost track of it in the thread, but do you have an example of a particular rule from a particular game that is a significant improvement on (a) coming up with story hooks for characters prior to the start of play (flaws, motivations, relationships, etc.) and (b) aligning player and gamemaster expectations on what sort of campaign this will be (heavy on combat, heavy on story and social interaction, etc.)?

My sense is the rules in such games are generally a place holder for the conversations above. As was noted elsewhere, I would be extremely wary of a system that introduced complex story mechanics (ala combat) that obviated the need for roleplaying all together.

Let's use the Hero System (CHAMPIONS) as an example.

First, let's not oversell the rule set. It doesn't align player--GM expectations, but negotiations/discussions around the rules can dispel incorrect assumptions. The GM still maintains control over what he plans to run.

A bit of background on the system:

  • It is a classless design system
  • Characters are created by spending points on attributes, skills, perks, and powers
  • The number of points available to spend is assigned by the GM as part of the campaign design and a typical restriction would look like “Characters may be constructed on 100 points plus up to another 100 points from Disadvantages”.

When a PC is constructed, a player may -- and almost universally does -- take Disadvantages. Disadvantages increase points with which the player may construct the character.

Disadvantages range in scope from things that limit the character compared to a normal person (something that wouldn't hurt a normal person will knock out or kill this character, the character has reduced or missing physical capabilities), the character has emotional attachments or social obligations that opponents can take advantage of (has a rival or loved one that gets into trouble), the character has a history (hunted by someone, is actively monitored, (in)famous), or the character has mental restrictions on behaviour – (phobias, personality ticks, oaths and codes of honour, etc.).

Each disadvantage is effectively rated two ways: the approximate frequency of occurrence in play (infrequent or about 25% of adventures, frequent or about 50% of adventures, or very common 90% of adventures) and severity. When a character is presented to the GM, the GM takes note of the disadvantages and assumptions found therein and should compare them with the expected campaign play.

The character is hydrophobic and becomes near catatonic when near large amount of open water, but that happens rarely? So the planned Arabian desert --> Mediterranean ship transition probably won't be good for this character. The GM should mention open water is expected to occur more frequently that 'infrequent' in the campaign and perhaps the points should be re-distributed from “infrequent,total” to “frequent,moderate”,

So how does this supply story hooks? Half the disadvantages are things in the campaign world that have an established interest in the character or ways for things in the campaign world can find that character.

The other half are player cues of situations the player wants to occur. If the player buys something as “almost always” or “frequently occurring” then the player is explicitly accepting and expecting its occurrence. If a player buys something as infrequent, it is a signal the player is willing to occasionally experience the event, but doesn't want it a focus or ubiquitous in the campaign world. Anything not mentioned by any character sheet should be of limited concern for the campaign unless the original campaign write up mentioned it -- no player cares enough about it for even infrequent occurrence.
 

am181d

Adventurer
Let's use the Hero System (CHAMPIONS) as an example.

The thing about disadvantages in superhero games is that they tend to serve too purposes: One is the "story complication" piece and the other is the "weakness" piece. So, yes, "code of honor" is a disadvantage, but the REAL reason that the system is there is so that you can make a character vulnerable to kryptonite. Some of the disadvantages (like vulnerability to kryptonite) need clear mechanics around them. I'm not sure that something like "code versus killing" does.

I'll admit that I don't generally talk to players about how *frequently* they want their various story hooks to come into play, but that aside, I don't know know that you're getting much from the "story complication" side of Disadvantages that you can't get from any RPG, if you spent the requisite time setting up back stories.

I do think that using a reward system tied to story elements (you get an action point when your particular story hook becomes relevant) can be a useful *motivator* for role-playing and engagement, but if everybody in the group starts out motivated, I don't see it as a necessity.

And I guess that's the big thing for me. If folks come together intent on playing a game rich with story elements and role-playing and what have you, the mechanics aren't really necessary. (Whereas, the same generally can't be said for combat, spellcasting, etc.)
 

am181d

Adventurer
Interesting exchange.

I think that what Nytmare describes can be reasonably easily done in D&D (at least 4e). What chaochou describes, not so easily, because the game doesn't have enough robustness at the initial set-up phase. Even if the players send their signals in set up, they rely on the GM to introduce the particular story elements (especially antagonists) against which they react. This is escpecially because 4e means that a PC's relationships, positioning etc are likely to be defined by reference to cosmological elements that a 1st level PC can't really hope to confront directly.

BTW: Can you say a little more about this last piece? I'm not sure what you mean by "cosmological elements" in this context.
 

Nagol

Unimportant
The thing about disadvantages in superhero games is that they tend to serve too purposes: One is the "story complication" piece and the other is the "weakness" piece. So, yes, "code of honor" is a disadvantage, but the REAL reason that the system is there is so that you can make a character vulnerable to kryptonite. Some of the disadvantages (like vulnerability to kryptonite) need clear mechanics around them. I'm not sure that something like "code versus killing" does.

I'll admit that I don't generally talk to players about how *frequently* they want their various story hooks to come into play, but that aside, I don't know know that you're getting much from the "story complication" side of Disadvantages that you can't get from any RPG, if you spent the requisite time setting up back stories.

I do think that using a reward system tied to story elements (you get an action point when your particular story hook becomes relevant) can be a useful *motivator* for role-playing and engagement, but if everybody in the group starts out motivated, I don't see it as a necessity.

And I guess that's the big thing for me. If folks come together intent on playing a game rich with story elements and role-playing and what have you, the mechanics aren't really necessary. (Whereas, the same generally can't be said for combat, spellcasting, etc.)


Kryptonite is another form of story-hook, albeit an outlandish one as befits the milieu. It serves the same basic purpose as handcuffs or knockout drops do for a regular person -- how can we make this competent individual feel helpless and weak?

I use the Hero system quite a bit for "little" (i.e. no special powers) games like pulp/modern espionage/investigation and the like. Disadvantages work very well as a set of hooks for PC engagement and as a way for the players to signal what they are looking for from the game so you don't end up continually threatening a PCs love interest whose player has limited interest in saviour stories, for example.

An effective backstory can be just a useful, but disadvantages are a terrific tool to get the same basic amount of backstory from each player and get the players thinking about what they want/can tolerate in the campaign. The player gets compensated for taking the disadvantages through the increased competency of his character. The GM gets a snapshot view of expected complications and obvious directions for campaign flow. The GM can also provide a basic steering mechanism by assigning a specific set of disadvantages to all PCs in the campaign.

I'm played games with zero combat and others where either the GM or group decided how the combat went or how magic manifested. If folks come together intent on playing a game narratively, no rules are necessary -- just convenient.
 

I also wonder if you couldn't have an actual tactical interface and PC build resources centered around a "social combat" mini-game. <snip> .

Isn't this a Duel of Wits redux?

For a different take you could check out Diaspora. The social conflict chapter is basically a toolkit for building your own social conflict minigames based on drawing different types of network maps showing relationships, goals, intents, attitudes, states of mind (whatever is called for in that conflict) and participants then announcing actions to try and shift themselves or other people around the board.

You can also announce actions or make speeches to place aspects on different 'areas' of the board (ie, you could say something to try to put a doubt in someone's mind to hinder them if they move into a certain area of the map. Cool stuff like that.).

It's worked very well the times I've run it.
 

Isn't this a Duel of Wits redux?

Yup. That is pretty much what it is. I was thinking on trying to skin it to a 4e paradigm.

For a different take you could check out Diaspora. The social conflict chapter is basically a toolkit for building your own social conflict minigames based on drawing different types of network maps showing relationships, goals, intents, attitudes, states of mind (whatever is called for in that conflict) and participants then announcing actions to try and shift themselves or other people around the board.

You can also announce actions or make speeches to place aspects on different 'areas' of the board (ie, you could say something to try to put a doubt in someone's mind to hinder them if they move into a certain area of the map. Cool stuff like that.).

It's worked very well the times I've run it.

I'm not familiar with Diaspora. I'll have to look into it because it sounds to be precisely what I was thinking on. Thanks for the heads up!
 

pemerton

Legend
BTW: Can you say a little more about this last piece? I'm not sure what you mean by "cosmological elements" in this context.
I meant gods, demon lords, primordials, titans etc.

So we know that a dwarf is (by default, at least) opposed to the titans, and that a paladin of the Raven Queen is opposd to Orcus. But the PC, at 1st level, can't just set out to take on Thrym, or Orcus. The player is reliant on the GM introducing low-level cultists, servitors etc.
 

LostSoul

Adventurer
Good question. It's all a bit unclear, I think.

A similar question that LostSoul and I discussed once was how to adjudicate Diplomacy used to restore lost hp.

I think I once used an Intimidation check to deal HP. One of the first 4E games I DMed, I think. I am going to check to see if I wrote it up.

edit: I found something, not what I was expecting!

"I will finish what my fallen brothers started! Irontooth will kill you all - starting with you!" He rolled Intimidate vs. Will + 5 against the Warlock (who went down a couple of times last game), hoping to deal some psychic damage. He missed - the Warlock got over his near-death experience from the last game.

I guess the NPC Irontooth made that check. I probably would have set the damage to low multiple use or whatever it's called. (1d6+3? since they were 1st-3rd level.) I was probably trying to get the players to exploit the system in interesting ways. I don't think that really worked out, though.
 
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am181d

Adventurer
I meant gods, demon lords, primordials, titans etc.

So we know that a dwarf is (by default, at least) opposed to the titans, and that a paladin of the Raven Queen is opposd to Orcus. But the PC, at 1st level, can't just set out to take on Thrym, or Orcus. The player is reliant on the GM introducing low-level cultists, servitors etc.

Got it, thanks. I don't think I've played a campaign in any edition of D&D that's used the games' generic backstory, but I can see how this makes sense as a broader critique of leveled play. (Assuming the players have big goals, they'll have to start out small.)
 

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