Sword of Spirit
Legend
A simple question. It seems to me that Battle Master just blows Champion out of the water in most situations.
Am I missing something?
Am I missing something?
D&D 5E Is the Champion weak compared to Battle Master?
- Thread starter Sword of Spirit
- Start date
Chocolategravy
First Post
Battlemaster is good at low level and if you get lots of rests. Champion is good at high level or if you don't get lots of rests. Battlemaster is strong because of riposte, or possibly commander's strike with a rogue in the party. Champion is strong if you get synergy for it like reckless attack and the GWM and PA feats.
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The Crimson Binome
Hero
It seems pretty strong to me. Unlike the Battle Master, since the Champion has entirely passive abilities, you never risk being inefficient in their use. You never have to worry about using the wrong ability at the wrong time, and you always get 100% of their maximum utility. The Battle Master might be capable of more, but you're probably going to waste a lot of that potential by using it at the wrong time.
Marshall
First Post
Unless youre completely incompetent, you cant waste your Superiority Dice. They are guaranteed damage added on a hit or a free extra attack. This doesnt mean that the dice are good options or anything, it just means that the .5 star BM is all around better than the no-star Champion.
The scary part is just reverting to the Alpha version bumps the Champion 2 steps up. At the very least Indomitable should be always on at 17, Remarkable Athlete should bump up to full and then Double prof and the extra crit range is neat...but crits are crap in this edition unless you've got something to back them up like the Barbs Brutal Crit. Survivor is pointless when compared to other lvl 18 benefits. Regen 10 vs. Bonus 80 a round?
Chocolategravy
First Post
Huh? It's the reverse of that. Having the choice on when to spend your die means you are less likely to waste it than a randomly occurring crit is unless your decision making is so bad it's worse than random.
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AngryMojo
First Post
There's also something to be said about the expanded crit chance when you have advantage. With advantage a 19-20 becomes a 19% chance of a crit, while an 18-20 becomes just shy of a 28% chance. Considering how much advantage there is out there, by high levels this is very likely to happen. Granted your maneuvers with a battlemaster will do damage as if you are getting a crit at higher levels, but with how many attacks a fighter can get you can chew through those superiority dice very quickly. Going all out will leave you with no dice left after two rounds of combat, if you ration those dice they can last all day.
I can't really judge until I see both in combat, and as a tactician I'll take battlemaster every day of the week, but if the DM doesn't really allow a lot of short rests during the day I can absolutely see a champion shining bright. With a short rest getting bumped up to an hour it's not really feasible in most dungeon crawling scenarios to take one anymore. Somebody is bound to come along and check out that room that just got slaughtered in an hour, unless you find a truly remarkable hidey-hole.
Limited resources seem like a very big deal in this edition, it's nice to see fighters having to think about their abilities along with the spellcasters.
I can't really judge until I see both in combat, and as a tactician I'll take battlemaster every day of the week, but if the DM doesn't really allow a lot of short rests during the day I can absolutely see a champion shining bright. With a short rest getting bumped up to an hour it's not really feasible in most dungeon crawling scenarios to take one anymore. Somebody is bound to come along and check out that room that just got slaughtered in an hour, unless you find a truly remarkable hidey-hole.
Limited resources seem like a very big deal in this edition, it's nice to see fighters having to think about their abilities along with the spellcasters.
Chocolategravy
First Post
Yeah, no. With advantage from Reckless Attack the champion is getting an extra crit every round or two more than the Battlemaster. With GWM that crit is turning into an additional attack. If they are also a horc the crits get an extra damage die. Unless the Battlemaster is resting after every single fight they are losing quite badly in DPR. Even getting 6 ripostes every fight they could still be behind.
Plus the second fighting style is a nice touch, giving more real flexibility (and allowing a real shift in performance if a special magic item that doesn't fit the original style is found, or whatever).
Juriel
First Post
Champion that can get advantage on most attacks should work...
Fighter/Rogue with Shield Master - your weapon die is smaller, but you can knock people down with your bonus action shove (and Expertise in Athletics). So you knock them down before your attack string, then hit them twice with advantage (each hit having 19% chance of critting), with the main attraction here being that crits double your Sneak Attack damage.
Or just be that Half-Orc Great Weapon Master with Reckless Attack (and hopefully plentiful healing OR a reach weapon and allies to keep them from reaching you en masse).
Fighter/Rogue with Shield Master - your weapon die is smaller, but you can knock people down with your bonus action shove (and Expertise in Athletics). So you knock them down before your attack string, then hit them twice with advantage (each hit having 19% chance of critting), with the main attraction here being that crits double your Sneak Attack damage.
Or just be that Half-Orc Great Weapon Master with Reckless Attack (and hopefully plentiful healing OR a reach weapon and allies to keep them from reaching you en masse).
Mandragola
First Post
It seems to me that the champion is a decent option for someone multiclassing... but so is battle master. Honestly I'd much rather have the choice of when my abilities kicked in.
Annoying that you can't be a multiclass fighter/fighter. A battle master could apply the superiority dice after he's rolled a crit, which he would do quite a lot.
Annoying that you can't be a multiclass fighter/fighter. A battle master could apply the superiority dice after he's rolled a crit, which he would do quite a lot.
It seems to me that to make a Champion worthwhile seems to require some decent use of feats. If so, that is really not working as intended. The person that chooses the Champion is more likely than not the person who wants to avoid feats and go for stat bonuses. It is the class for people who want an OD&D feel to their character, or real newbies, neither of which should be steered toward feats.
SilverBulletKY
First Post
Champion in my group chose the Great Weapon Fighting ability. He rolled a 1 or 2 many times during the session and it was a huge benefit to him, a lot more than I anticipated. He actually rolled 2 1's on a critical hit once and got to reroll them and turned them into max damage.
Who knows what might be in the DMG that might make the Champion better. There might be optional critical hit systems that close the gap. Also we know for a fact that a form of the Vitality Wound Points system will be in the DMG. Using this system the Champion might be even better than the Battlemaster.
The Crimson Binome
Hero
You can waste it by using it on the wrong enemy. You might think this is the boss, but actually the boss is in the next room. Or you've heard that the boss is in the next room, so you save it now, only to find out the the boss is a push-over. Any decision that you make is a chance for you to be wrong, and introduces inefficiency into the system.
Passive abilities are always on, and you can never waste them. You might think that a critical hit is "wasted" when you roll a 19 on a goblin who was going to die anyway, but there was no cost associated with that - it's entirely free - and you'll get another free critical hit if you happen to roll a 19 when it matters against the boss. The theoretical benefit of random effects may be less than the theoretical benefits of controlled effects, but inefficiency is a non-issue.
Chocolategravy
First Post
It's not free. You're stuck as a champion. The "waste" comes in the DPR comparison. The crit damage is more likely to be overkill and not contribute to DPR than the superiority die is. In other words if half your crits are wasted on overkill you are getting 2.5% more crit hits, not 5%. That is waste. Meanwhile if you don't make dumb decisions with your superiority dice, ever die will be having full effect, and there is no waste.
The Crimson Binome
Hero
It's not wasted if it's free. It's literally impossible to waste an infinite resource. There's zero cost associated with rolling a critical hit. If there's a lot of overkill sometimes, then whatever, because you lose nothing from it. You'll still have unfettered access to that critical damage whenever you roll a 19 later on.
Every superiority die you spend now is one that you don't spend later, and every one that you don't spend before resting is also wasted. No matter how brilliant you are about using your dice at just the right time, you probably could have done it better if you'd had more information about the future. You will make mistakes, if you are a Battle Master.
