D&D 5E Is the Champion weak compared to Battle Master?

[Prism]

Champion is good when you multiclass. Its abilities scale well through the game and are not level dependant like the other two sub classes. 19-20 crit is still great at high levels, whereas 4 x 1d8 superiority dice loses some of its appeal. Proficiency bonus to skills simply gets better. You also gain the missing utility typically from the other class.

 

[Xxandx]

I love 5th edition

I'm currantly playing with a Fighter/Battle Master in our new
campaign, and I am having such a great time with it.

If you combine your class features with some other feats of your
own choise, both Battle Master and Champion can be awsome!

In 5th edition there is a lot of good feats for fighters. Solid feats!

-Alert: +5 initiativ! That's never wrong!
-Defensive Duelist: If you are using finesse weapons, you can use
your reaction to add proficiency bonus to AC.
-Dual Wielder: If you use two weapons you get +1 AC and some
nice abilities.
-Great Weapon Master: I can see a Champion with a heavy
weapon of some sort combined with hes crit:19-20 (18-20) dealing
a lot of damage with this one.
-Inspiring Leader: Grant your party with some ekstra temporary
Hit Points before entering battle. Why not...?
-Lucky: This looks like a real off the hook feat. This might be that
one thing preventing you from taking a serious critical hit.
-Mage Slayer: To be a pain in the butt for spell casters...yes please!
-Martial Adept: Some ekstra maneuvers and superiority dices.
-Polearm Master: If you fight with reach weapons.
-Savage Attacker: Reroll damage.
-Sentinel: Very effective against opportunity attacks.
-Shield Master: If you use shields, you can shove or knock targets
prone. (I use this and It's very effective, granting advantage).
-Sharpshooter: If you use bows.
-Tough: For ekstra Hit Points. (I will always pick this feat, if possible)

My Battle Master is Dexterity based instead of Strenght. I use light
armor, finesse weapon (scimitar) and a shield. Only lvl5 so far.

-Fighting Style: Protection:
If you are fighting adjacent to other members in
your party you can protect them a little, granting enemies
disadvantage on attacks.

-I have the feat Shield Master:
As a bonus action I can knock targets prone, granting myself and
the others advantage.
After turning level 5 I have an extra attack. If it's necessary I can
use one of the attacks to use my maneuver 'command'. My friend
the ranger can finish them off!

I see maneuvers as a last resort and/or when times calls for
something extra. To maybe manipulate the battle field a little.
Or gain an upper hand against opponents. Even the odds a little.

-I have 3 maneuvers so far: Command, Reposte and Parry.
Other maneuvers will come along later, but I guess those 3 will be
the most used. The superiority dices will become stronger and
I get some more uses eventually.
The feat Martial Adept will grant even more when I get it.

Suprisingly my Battle Master works well as a Tank/controller role!
If I can later add the feat Defensive Duelist, I think that could
be usefull. Staying alive means I can protect others.

The other characters in my group:

-A paladin: Tank with heavy armor and a greatsword. Deals tons of
damage now with extra attacks. Heals and grants blesses.

-A ranger: Deals a lot of damage to wounded foes. Also has a
few tricks up his sleave. Pinning targets with arrows.

-A rogue: Holy cow they can deal alot of damage to single foes
when they have advantage.
(I'm planing an Assassin for a later campaign. Looks insane!).

-A Sage/wizard: I think glass canon is the right term here. But he
has some very potent spells, and can bring groups of targets down.

I see my Battle Master as a "playmaker" of sorts. A team player
that compliments the other players.
It's fun to se one of the team mates get a critical hit because you
provided advantage.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Welcome to the community, and glad you're enjoying the game!

I have to say that I liked the description of your character. One of the great things about 5e is you don't have to create the most optimized character to have fun and contribute. Scimitar + shield + light armor isn't on any lists of power-characters, but I like it!

 

[Mistwell]

Yeah, no. With advantage from Reckless Attack the champion is getting an extra crit every round or two more than the Battlemaster. With GWM that crit is turning into an additional attack. If they are also a horc the crits get an extra damage die. Unless the Battlemaster is resting after every single fight they are losing quite badly in DPR. Even getting 6 ripostes every fight they could still be behind.

That...is a pretty interesting combination right there. Hmm, I'd like to see the math over several levels, but it sounds better than I thought. Hmm, a half-orc Fighter/Barbarian Great Weapon Master using Reckless Attack. Interesting!

 

[CapnZapp]

One of my players is a totem barbarian. Reckless grants advantage to counter the penalty of GWF, and bear resistance mitigates the drawbacks of reckless.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

That...is a pretty interesting combination right there. Hmm, I'd like to see the math over several levels, but it sounds better than I thought. Hmm, a half-orc Fighter/Barbarian Great Weapon Master using Reckless Attack. Interesting!

It's better than you thought only because chocolategravy is exaggerating how many crits you get. From 3rd level to 14th level, a champion gets one extra crit every 20 attacks. From 15th level onwards, he gets one extra crit every 10 attacks. So for 3rd and 4th level, he gets one extra GWM attack every twenty rounds (relative to an Eldritch Knight or Battlemaster), then from 5th to 10th level it's one extra GWM attack every ten rounds (unless he killed or critted something already that round, in which case he would have gotten it anyway even if EK/BM instead of Champion), then from 11th to 14th it's one extra attack every seven rounds, from 15th to 19th it's one every three rounds, and at twentieth level it's one every two and a half rounds.

If you add in a Barbarian 2 multiclass for Reckless attack, you crit 19.5% of the time instead of 5% (27.75% at 17th level when you're Champion 15). At Barb 2/Champion 3 (5th level) you'll be getting 1.19 attacks per round if we neglect the bonus action attack from kills (this skews the analysis slightly in favor of the Barb/Champion) compared to 2.095 attacks per round for a regular Eldritch Knight 5. At Barb 2/Champion 5, the pendulum swings in your favor: you're getting 2.35 attacks per round to his 2.095, and it stays that way up until 11th level when it becomes 2.35 attacks per round to his 3.0975 (again, neglecting bonus attacks from kills). At 13th level it swings back in your favor, at 3.478 attacks per round to his 3.0975, and at 17th level you hit your max attacks/round: 3.623 attacks per round due to superior critical to his 3.0975 attacks per round. At 20th level he pulls ahead again with 4 attacks/round.

Neglecting bonus attacks from kills favors the barb/champ in the analysis, because the EK/Battlemaster benefits more from bonus action kills, since the barb/champ is more likely to have already used up his bonus action on a critical hit.

I think it's clear from the above analysis that GWM barb/champ is primarily attractive for the +10 damage and not for extra attacks (which sometimes don't exist).

The downside to the barb/champ is that 1.) you delay your Extra Attack progression, which also means that your Action Surges are less valuable; 2.) you don't get the EK/Battlemaster special abilities like Precise Strike or Blur. Ergo, it is a pretty good Champion fighter build. It has the virtue of simplicity for players who, like Harry Dresden, deal with a lot of complexity in their regular lives and want just want to play a mindless smashing machine for D&D, and do it more effectively (due to the Reckless plus -5/+10 combo) than a regular Champion fighter.

 

[Xxandx]

I have been reading alot about multiclassing lately. And I see how easely my Battle Master would fit in with a few levels of the Rogue class. He is Dexterity based, uses light armor and finesse weapon.

-Rogues use finesse weapons to gain Sneak Attack.

And look at the class features:
-Expertise: Two skills gains double proficiency bonus.

That would improve my Acrobatic checks even more. That's the skill I use to knock targets prone with my shield. (Feat: Shield Master)

Knocking targets prone I create my own advantages. I can deal Sneak Attack damage with one of my attacks that way.

5 levels of Rogue gives 3d6 Sneak Attack. Pluss I get Uncanny Didge.

It's not full on Assassin, but with the ekstra attacks the Fighter class gains it's not so bad...?

 

[jgsugden]

The most significant factors in which is a better power set is outside your control ... it is in the hands of the DM. Specifically, the value proposition is dictated primarily by rest frequency and encounter design.

If your DM sets up challenges so that you are taking short rests between every combat and you're facing hordes of weak foes in battles that do not last long, the Battlemaster is a much better option. However, if you find yourself in a game where you have 3 or 4 battles between short rests, the battles are long, and the enemies are not the type to fall down deal when you get a non-crit... Champion can be a very strong option. Also, Champion is better for a character that gets more attacks (dual weapon, scimitar of speed, etc...) Rather than one that is going to get fewer attacks (A fighter that is going to multiclass and not get to 3 or 4 attacks).

Both are fine. Battlemaster is more active. As fighters tend to be fairly one - note classes, a lot of people prefer the options found in Battlemastyer for the variety they add to combats.

 

[Xxandx]

But do you think my plans for multiclassing my BattleMaster with a few levels of Rogue is a good idea?

When I create a character I'm not aiming to be best at everything. I create characters I will feel comfertable with. That can fit in with the rest of the group. But I also like mixing things up a little, not to much, but a little just to make it more interesting.

I could have made a fighter with a greatsword, dealing alot more damage and thrown on heavy armor for maybe a little more AC. But I have already been there and done that in previous D&D additions.

This time I wanted to create my Fighter a little bit different. More agile and quick. He works fine as a Tanker/controller and he is very fun to play with. But he could always do with a little more damage output. And I think the Rogue class could maybe help him out with that...?

 

[jgsugden]

From a role playing perspective: If it makes sense for the character story, it is just fine.

From a power gamer perspective: Any class abilities that can lock up your chance to hit and make sure you don't fail to connect on a sneak attack is a good idea, or that can give you an extra attack outside of your main attack so that you get an extra sneak attack, is a good idea for a rogue. A rogue that can reliably sneak 3 times per round (once each on three different turns within a round) is one of the most powerful builds in the game... Battlemaster does have ways to get you an attack with a reaction. They you just need a way to attack as a bonus independent of an attack action (like Scimitar of Speed) and readied attacks to complete the trinity...