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D&D 5E Is the Champion weak compared to Battle Master?

Imaro

Legend
The more options a class gives you, the more likely you'll be able to make decisions that lead to you putting in a better than baseline performance. In that sense, sure, the Battlemaster is a little better than the Champion. In the same sense (specifically), casters are so much better than both the Champion and Battlemaster that said difference between those 2 fighter archetypes is moot. If you want to play a simple character, make few decisions, and make an adequate base-line contribution while other characters make decisions that affect the outcome of each encounter and the ultimate success of the campaign, play the Champion. If you want to make interesting, meaningful, decisions, play a caster (preferably a 'full' caster) of whatever sort appeals to you.

This really hasn't been my experience with 5e so far... but whatever.

EDIT: I also find it interesting that on these forums we have some posters claiming that the casters have been nerfed too far with concentration limitations... while others are claiming they are akin to gods in the game... which one is it?
 
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teclis2000

First Post
Whether you want to play a Champion or a Battlemaster can be based on your preferred amount of complexity, desire for an old school feel, and/or the number of adult beverages you consume during the game.

That's the reason why I go for the champion. My paladin has INT 8 and is for smiting evil, not for making tactical decisions. ;)

Usually I play wizards (in some more complex RPG than D&D), so champion is just fine vor this campaign and for this character concept. And there is already a dwarven battlaster in the party. Hope he gives me some commands to strike.

But I'm glad to see that the champion is not too weak in your opinion. :)
 
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Sacrosanct

Legend
It's also worth noting that just because the champion doesn't have battlemaster maneuvers, it doesn't mean you can't do anything other than basic attack. Anyone can help, attempt a disarm, trip, whatever. It's just that the BM has those clearly defined with how their SD impacts the attempt.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
EDIT: I also find it interesting that on these forums we have some posters claiming that the casters have been nerfed too far with concentration limitations... while others are claiming they are akin to gods in the game... which one is it?
It seems like every edition, D&D strips major limitations off casters, and reigns them in slightly in some other way, and somebody gets on line, ignores the huge boost casters just got, and claims they were 'nerfed' because they were reigned in slightly. OK, to be fair, it was more than 'slightly' in 4e. ;)

Relative to 3.5, when prepped casters absolutely dominated Tier 1 thanks to their tremendous versatility, 5e casters gained: the equivalent of 3.5 spontaneous casting on top of the equivalent of 3.5 prepped casting, at-will cantrips including non-trivial at-will attacks, short-rest recovery of some spell slots, immunity to AoOs (not even any drawback to casting a save spell in melee, elimination of concentration checks for casting spell in melee/when grappled/etc, no loss of said spells for being damaged/grappled/etc), the same save DC for spells of all levels instead of the best DC only for the highest level spells, the ability to cast spells as rituals without using slots, and, for the wizard, even a better HD. In return, they lost damage scaling on spells by caster level (but gained scaling by slot without metamagic), got fewer slots overall, and had some of the most broken spells 'nerfed,' some of those with a concentration mechanic (that locks out other concentration spells, not all casting, unlike earlier versions of concentration).

That doesn't look like a net nerf, to me, and that's relative to the ed in which prepped casters were arguably at their most wildly overpowered. Relative to 4e, the power-up received by casters is much more profound - as is the slashing of options from martial classes - and, for that matter, the slashing of whole martial classes (there are arguably /no/ all-martial classes in 5e - all have at least one caster archetype - only a handful of non-caster archetypes). Even relative to AD&D, casters received a greater increase in options/power than martial classes, and a much greater easing of restrictions/limitations.

Anyone concluding 5e 'nerfed casters,' is probably focusing on one spell or mechanic that was wildly broken in some prior edition, that 5e has merely reigned in a bit.
 
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sobchak

First Post
I would say listen to what people have to say and make your decisions Imaro.

D&D has a long history, passionate supporters, edition warriors and lots of scar tissue.

In the end, it can only be as good as each group collectively makes it.
 


Imaro

Legend
Relative to 3.5, when prepped casters absolutely dominated Tier 1 thanks to their tremendous versatility, 5e casters gained: the equivalent of 3.5 spontaneous casting on top of the equivalent of 3.5 prepped casting, at-will cantrips including non-trivial at-will attacks, short-rest recovery of some spell slots, immunity to AoOs (not even any drawback to casting a save spell in melee), elimination of concentration checks for casting and maintaining spells, no loss of said concentration for being damaged/grappled/etc, the same spell DC for spells of all levels instead of the best DC only for the highest level spells, the ability to cast spells as rituals without using slots, and, for the wizard, even a better HD. In return, they lost damage scaling on spells by caster level (but gained scaling by slot without metamagic), got fewer slots overall, and had some of the most broken spells 'nerfed,' some of those with a concentration mechanic (that required no concentration check, can't be interrupted by damage, and only locks out other concentration spells, not all casting, unlike AD&D-era concentration).

That doesn't look like a net nerf, to me, and that's relative to the ed in which prepped casters were arguably at their most wildly overpowered. Relative to 4e, the power-up received by casters is much more profound - as is the slashing of options from martial classes - and, for that matter, the slashing of whole martial classes (there are arguably /no/ all-martial classes in 5e - all have at least one caster archetype - only a handful of non-caster archetypes). Even relative to AD&D, casters received a greater increase in options/power than martial classes, and a much greater easing of restrictions/limitations.

Anyone concluding 5e 'nerfed casters,' is probably focusing on one spell or mechanic that was wildly broken in some prior edition, that 5e has merely reigned in a bit.

I'm not even going to address this point by point because I don't have the time... but when did concentration checks for casters taking damage get removed fom 5e?
 

procproc

First Post
I'm not even going to address this point by point because I don't have the time... but when did concentration checks for casters taking damage get removed fom 5e?

They didn't. Tony Vargas, you should probably review how concentration works in 5e.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
They didn't. Tony Vargas, you should probably review how concentration works in 5e.
Cool, glad to hear it. Unfortunately, I ran Next so much during the playtest that its still easy for me to get details like that confused. I will go back and remove that one thing from the long list of goodies 5e heaped on casters....
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
It's also worth noting that from a DPR perspective (I hate that term) the champion has an opportunity to do extra damage on EVERY attack. A BM has X amount per short rest. So if you're comparing who is better from a damage standpoint, it really depends on how many combat rounds you have in between short rests.
 

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