Is the Executioner underpowered, not a striker or both? (or am I missing something?)

[keterys]

My buddy is playing an executioner in one of our games, and he is pretty underwhelmed. His damage output is consistently lower than the dagger-wielding rogue, and my defender (an avenging paladin with a fullblade). This particular game is an Eberron game with a lot of intrigue and subterfuge, so I'm sure he will get a chance to shine in those areas, but so far it hasn't quite worked out that way.

Fairly low level?

Ie, 1d4+2d6+8 (17.5) damage for the rogue, 1d12+8 (14.5) for the paladin, 2d8 + 5 (14) damage for executioner, thereabouts? A lot of the original classes got to add two stats to damage, and they perform a lot better at low level - like the 2d6 + 10 goliath fighter at 1st level hangs out with the strikers quite well.

I do suspect that some better at-wills would bring the executioner a long ways... and not-sucky encounter... and, yeah, it's just hard to compare it to a thief, but it's still within the bounds of most games' balance point

 

[UngeheuerLich]

And by all means, how is it fair to compare a goliath fighter with an extra feat with a vanilla assassin...

give it eladrin soldier feat and you now compare 2d8+7 with the paladin... (who is a dwarf with an axe?)
such comparisons, and a half point of damage does not make a striker bad...

 

[keterys]

I was assuming a Str/Wis build paladin, since that's the easiest route to damage at that level. Fullblade (1d12) with Str & Wis both added to damage.

And, sure, the executioner could have a +1 or +2 feat bonus, or a 1d10 superior weapon. Or get a multiclass feat, then next level pick up surprising charge for a second d8 on charges. Or get the feat that ups garrote damage to d6s or... was doing a fairly simple comparison. I also didn't give the rogue backstabber, after all. The point was more that adding two stats (Ex: Dex + Str, Dex + Cha, Str + Wis, Str + Con, in the examples) is extremely good at low level.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

yes, if you do optimze for dual stats, you are right... but damage alone is not what makes a stikr a striker... it is doing damage at the right time...

 

[GreyLord]

Perhaps if we added one poison to the mix. All the poisons listed say 1+, what if we added a poison that was 10+ and stated...

Instant death! Enemy struck must roll a save or die.


It would only work once, but that chance to outright kill a boss/elite/solo probably could see it as an evened out ability.

Also grasp the feel of the assassin from earlier years when they could do one shot death attacks!

 

[mneme]

GL: they still can! They just have to do enough hp damage (which at least at 1st level they can easily do against even levelled foes).

Actually, Executioners do get one shot kill poisons at 25th level -- but they need to apply them out of combat (and they'll only affect same and lower level foes).

That said, +8 damage/encounter (15th level) and +10 damage+dazed/encounter (25th level) buff poisons are pretty nasty. Assassin poison upgrades are 15th level, 20th level (for the paragon path), and 25th level.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Well, that's using the assumption that someone is wanting to play a stealthy thief. My rogue, before essentials, was an artful dodger build. It's hard to be a stealthy daredevil doing back flips and wall runs and general parkour tricks (and my character loves to be seen/heard). All of my powers were based around movement and charging and tricks. When the Thief came out I immediately switched over because it was more in fitting with my character.

Which is great. It should be possible to make both a stealthy, sneaking cutpurse type of rogue and a fast moving, daredevil, swashbuckling robber, etc ... but when the 'optimal' one is a charger, that does mean that a backstabber is "better off" being in your face than sneaking up behind you ... which does seem a bit counter intuitive. The "classic" theif is subpar compared to Leroy Rogue-ins.

As far as Executioners. . . well my Executioner screamed that he was the best assassin in the world while making stealth checks (taking massive penalties) because there isn't many benefits to being hidden (CA, a few items that give bonus damage), but there's plenty of benefits for running up to people and stabbing them in the face (charging or not). Even the Design and Development article devs said they didn't see the Executioner as a ranged character (and seemed surprised that people wanted multiple poison uses for ranged weapons....apparently forgetting the fact that one guild IS RANGED BASED). That's just the nature of 4E, I guess.

Which is my complaint mostly. They do give the Executioner a few hide things (but in a clunky "you must be hidden to do this" way). There are some practical applications (suprise rounds, opportunities to cdg, making yourself hard to be attacked or hit), but really, the whole hiding thing is difficult to pull off, hard to keep when you attack (which you should be doing) and doesn't give a ton of benefit when you do it, which is a big reason why the shade is looked down upon, as the only classes that really want stealth get it auto trained anyway.

Still, it would seem that they should try and do something to make it so that, at the very least, an assassin is better of being a ninja than a pinball.

 

[Mengu]

Still, it would seem that they should try and do something to make it so that, at the very least, an assassin is better of being a ninja than a pinball.

Agreed, but perhaps that's less a fault of the assassin, and more a fault of the pinball machine.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

Agreed, but perhaps that's less a fault of the assassin, and more a fault of the pinball machine.

Ever since I was a young rogue, I've used a silver maul.
From Fallcrest down to Nentir, I must have fought them all.
But I ain't seen nothing like him, in any sellsword hall.
That deaf, dumb assassin sure plays a mean pinball.

 

[mneme]

@Wednesday Boy : ooh, almost, but I think you went incoherent somewhere in there. Hmm.


Ever since I was a young elf, I've wanted to stand tall,
From Fallcrest down to Nentir, I must have fought them all,
But I ain't seen nothing like him, in any bar or hall,
That deaf, dumb, blind assassin, sure wields a nasty maul.

He stands like a statue, hides himself within plain sight,
Blends into the background, if it's dark or if it's light,
He shrouds by sheer perception, while he stands back from the fight,
That deaf, dumb, blind assassin, sure wields a nasty maul.

He's a slaying wizard, there's got to be a catch,
A slaying wizard, I've never seen his match.

[I think I'll stop there for now]