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5E Is the Healer Feat Broken?

Mistwell

Legend
Even if you (or your DM) rule that it only takes one hand, sheathing a weapon uses your free action, and drawing something from your pack uses your free action. So if your rogue dual wields the only option is to drop one of the weapons. Now, whether or not you and your DM decide that you can use a Healer's Kit not only with one hand but your offhand, is up to you.
Yes if you dual wield you will have a problem. I was not assuming dual wielding. You will need one free hand I assume. As for "offhand", I don't really think that's a thing in 5e for tool/object use.
 

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Mistwell

Legend
A 3rd level Vuman Thief, cannot access the 1d6+ healing with a bonus action. Use Object does not specify the trigger condition for the healing, the Healer Feat does.

Alas the Healer feat is clear, an action is required to spend a Healer Kit charge to access the 1d6+ healing.

As an action, you can spend one use of a healer's kit to tend to a creature and restore ld6 + 4 hit points to it, plus additional hit points equal to the creature's maximum number of Hit Dice. The creature can't regain hit points from this feat again until it finishes a short or long rest.
Crawford ruled a thief can do it as a bonus action years ago. "Q: Can a thief with the healer feat use healing kits as a bonus action? A: Yes, a thief could use a healer's kit as a bonus action."

And from the Sage Advice Compendium: "Can a thief use the Fast Hands feature to activate a magic item? No. One of the benefits of Fast Hands is being able to take the Use an Object action as a bonus action, but using a magic item doesn’t fall under Use an Object, as explained in the Dungeon Master’s Guide (p. 141). In contrast, using a nonmagical item, such as a healer’s kit, is in the domain of Use an Object."

I understand your argument that the action specified in the feat is the trigger, but as the use requires the Use an Object action and is a nonmagical item, it sure looks to follow the more specific rule of Fast Hands switching it to a bonus action.
 

Asisreo

Demon's Advocate
Crawford ruled a thief can do it as a bonus action years ago. "Q: Can a thief with the healer feat use healing kits as a bonus action? A: Yes, a thief could use a healer's kit as a bonus action."

And from the Sage Advice Compendium: "Can a thief use the Fast Hands feature to activate a magic item? No. One of the benefits of Fast Hands is being able to take the Use an Object action as a bonus action, but using a magic item doesn’t fall under Use an Object, as explained in the Dungeon Master’s Guide (p. 141). In contrast, using a nonmagical item, such as a healer’s kit, is in the domain of Use an Object."

I understand your argument that the action specified in the feat is the trigger, but as the use requires the Use an Object action and is a nonmagical item, it sure looks to follow the more specific rule of Fast Hands switching it to a bonus action.
You're not using the healer's kit, though. You're using a feature that expends a Healer's kit charge. Think of it like shooting an arrow. You don't "Use an Object" to shoot the arrow then shoot the arrow, you take the attack action and in consequence use up an arrow. You needn't have an arrow in hand either.
 

TaranTheWanderer

Adventurer
You're not using the healer's kit, though. You're using a feature that expends a Healer's kit charge. Think of it like shooting an arrow. You don't "Use an Object" to shoot the arrow then shoot the arrow, you take the attack action and in consequence use up an arrow. You needn't have an arrow in hand either.
I, personally, find this to be reading a bit too close to the rules. But that's just me. I'd allow the rogue to do it with his fast hands. When you don't have the 'feature', what kind of action is it to use a healer's kit? Do you allow your players to do an attack action and then apply a healers kit? I don't. They have to use their turn.

I don't see the action as being any different as using the kit normally. It's just that the feat makes using it more potent. I don't tell them that, because they took a feat, it's now harder to use the kit.

That said, I could see you interpreting it as a 'more complex' action that requires special training and therefore disallow the Fast Hands application.
 

Asisreo

Demon's Advocate
I, personally, find this to be reading a bit too close to the rules. But that's just me. I'd allow the rogue to do it with his fast hands. When you don't have the 'feature', what kind of action is it to use a healer's kit? Do you allow your players to do an attack action and then apply a healers kit? I don't. They have to use their turn.

I don't see the action as being any different as using the kit normally. It's just that the feat makes using it more potent. I don't tell them that, because they took a feat, it's now harder to use the kit.

That said, I could see you interpreting it as a 'more complex' action that requires special training and therefore disallow the Fast Hands application.
When you're using an item for it's purpose, you're using the "Use an Object" action. When you're using it to smack someone, yeah you're "using" it but it's the attack action. Fast Hands wouldn't work with the healing but it would work with the stabilization.

Which I think is fine.
 

Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
Here we are four years later and I am finally considering taking the healer feat and making a Thief rogue to use Fast Hands with it.

The question is, is it worth it at 4th level instead of boosting Dex? I am a halfling lightfoot rogue. Will it still be effective to begin using this at 4th level? We don't have any other dedicated healers, though we do have a Druid PC and a Wizard with a single level in Cleric.

Your thoughts @Zardnaar ?
I played a Kobold rogue/cleric/fighter from level 3 to level 20 in DotMM. I took Healer as my level 4 rogue feat (at character level 6). The character kept the kit accessible on his belt, and fought with a 1-handed weapon, so there was always a hand free to use the kit. Under these conditions, Healer was invaluable through the entire game, all the way up to level 20. (The character topped out at 18 Dex, and that was enough. Although without Pack Tactics you may decide a 20 Dex is more worthwhile for your character than it would have been for mine.)

Since you won't be using Healer every round, grab some vials of acid or alchemist's fire (or even oil, if you're strapped for cash) to use with Fast Hands when you happen to have a spare bonus action.
 

Mistwell

Legend
You're not using the healer's kit, though.
So how does it "spend one use of a healer’s kit to tend to a creature" if you're not using the healer's kit?

Do you apply a similar rule to other things which spend a use of a limited resource? If something says you can spend a bardic inspiration to do X, are you not using bardic inspiration? If it says spend a use of Channel Divinity to do X, are you not using Channel Divinity?
 
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Asisreo

Demon's Advocate
So how does it "spend one use of a healer’s kit to tend to a creature" if you're not using the healer's kit?
The same way "Casting a Spell" action expends the material components of certain materials. It's a consequence of the action, not a whole other action itself.
 

Mistwell

Legend
The same way "Casting a Spell" action expends the material components of certain materials. It's a consequence of the action, not a whole other action itself.
Right and if you cast a spell which expends material components you are using those material components. It's just specifically stated you use them simultaneous with the spell casting. " A character can use a component pouch..." "A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components...but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components."

I am not claiming it's some other action. The opposite in fact. The feat is allowing you to do something special with the same action you'd normally use the Healer's Kit. It's part of that action - in this case a bonus action. You're using the kit though. Just as you are using the material components. It's obvious you're using the kit - it says directly you spend a use to tend the creature.

I'll ask again, do you apply a similar rule to other things which spend a use of a limited resource? If something says you can spend a bardic inspiration to do X, are you not using bardic inspiration? If it says spend a use of Channel Divinity to do X, are you not using Channel Divinity?
 

TaranTheWanderer

Adventurer
When you're using an item for it's purpose, you're using the "Use an Object" action. When you're using it to smack someone, yeah you're "using" it but it's the attack action. Fast Hands wouldn't work with the healing but it would work with the stabilization.

Which I think is fine.
As I said, I disagree with that assessment. I think stabilizing and healing uses the same action.

Description of Healer's kit:
This kit is a leather pouch containing bandages, salves, and splints. The kit has ten uses. As an action, you can expend one use of the kit to... stabilize a creature that has 0 hit points, without needing to make a W isdom (Medicine) check.

Healer Feat:
As an action, you can spend one use of a healer’s kit to... tend to a creature and restore 1d6 + 4 hit points to it,

Notice the wording of the use of a healer's kit is exactly the same as the wording in the Healer's Feat? So, I don't differentiate between the two actions. I'm making the assumption that the feat allows for a more powerful outcome as a result of that same action. Otherwise, To me, it feels like taking the feat makes the kit, somehow, harder to use.

Then the quote from sage advice:
In contrast, using a nonmagical item, such as a healer’s kit, is in the domain of Use an Object.

That's my interpretation of the words on the paper.

Edit: Ninja'd by Mistwell
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Other people's interpretations don't really matter if your DM is going with words from on high. If they don't like that they don't have to use it in their games.
 

Asisreo

Demon's Advocate
Right and if you cast a spell which expends material components you are using those material components. It's just specifically stated you use them simultaneous with the spell casting. " A character can use a component pouch..." "A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components...but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components."

I am not claiming it's some other action. The opposite in fact. The feat is allowing you to do something special with the same action you'd normally use the Healer's Kit. It's part of that action - in this case a bonus action. You're using the kit though. Just as you are using the material components. It's obvious you're using the kit - it says directly you spend a use to tend the creature.

I'll ask again, do you apply a similar rule to other things which spend a use of a limited resource? If something says you can spend a bardic inspiration to do X, are you not using bardic inspiration? If it says spend a use of Channel Divinity to do X, are you not using Channel Divinity?
You are using the Healer's kit. I'm not arguing against that. What I am arguing is that you aren't using the "Use an Object" action and you don't need a free hand.

Likewise, you're using an arrow with an attack but you aren't using an interaction to knock it and you don't need a free hand to retrieve one (it's implied that you're quickly letting go of the two-handed bow with a hand, grabbing the arrow, and knocking it).
 

I've got a Rogue Vhuman who went the Healer route. Also an alchemist and makes some fun toys.

Been playing via post for a year now, and never had a single problem with it, so I don't know why people would decide not to allow it. It is fun, but nowhere near powerful enough to deserve a nerf.
 


jgsugden

Hero
So we just necro a thread from 4 years ago and do not notice?

Not broken. The only thing in 5E that is broken is the Rod of Seven Parts. And that is only because it is not officially in 5E. And if it was, it would be broken into 7 parts.
 

Asisreo

Demon's Advocate
Pick a position man.

As for arrows, that's because the arrow has a specific rule under ammunition and loading. Otherwise it would be a use an object. In this case, Healers Kit remains a use an object action. Because it's not ammunition.
I'm saying that you're using a charge from the Healer's kit and therefore "using" it but you're not using the feature in the Healer's kit description.

Healer, the feat, gives you a new action that expends a healer's kit.

Casting a spell from a scroll uses the Cast a Spell action and destroys the spell, but you're not using the "Use an Item" action. There's specific wording in spell scroll uses, as there are with the Healer feat.
 

Mistwell

Legend
So we just necro a thread from 4 years ago and do not notice?

Not broken. The only thing in 5E that is broken is the Rod of Seven Parts. And that is only because it is not officially in 5E. And if it was, it would be broken into 7 parts.
So we just didn't read the necro post and complain about necroing the thread and not noticing?

It's not necro'ed to talk about it being broken.
 

Mistwell

Legend
I'm saying that you're using a charge from the Healer's kit and therefore "using" it but you're not using the feature in the Healer's kit description.

Healer, the feat, gives you a new action that expends a healer's kit.

Casting a spell from a scroll uses the Cast a Spell action and destroys the spell, but you're not using the "Use an Item" action. There's specific wording in spell scroll uses, as there are with the Healer feat.
As @TaranTheWanderer pointed out, it's the IDENTICAL language between the Healer feat and the Healer's Kit tool text. They both say, "As an action, you can expend one use of the kit to... " and the Fast Hands feat does in fact work to change the action to a bonus action for the kit, so why wouldn't it work the same way for the feat with the identical language?
 

Asisreo

Demon's Advocate
As @TaranTheWanderer pointed out, it's the IDENTICAL language between the Healer feat and the Healer's Kit tool text. They both say, "As an action, you can expend one use of the kit to... " and the Fast Hands feat does in fact work to change the action to a bonus action for the kit, so why wouldn't it work the same way for the feat with the identical language?
One is using the Healer's kit description. The other is using the Healer's feat description. Two separate sources using the same type of charge.

Far be it for me to tell you how to rule your game but...it's pretty clear that you aren't using the Healer's kit's intended action, only using a new action that expends a healer's kit charge.
 

Mistwell

Legend
One is using the Healer's kit description. The other is using the Healer's feat description. Two separate sources using the same type of charge.
Two separate sources using the same exact language, with a class ability about that very language, which changes the action to a bonus action. What is the in-game justification for it working with one but not the other? What is even your argument that this makes sense, if it's not "I don't like this combination"? Because if it's just that let's talk about the costs and benefits of taking a feat and taking this subclass to get this kind of result rather than this silly debate about how two identical sentences should be treated differently for apparently...reasons?
 

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