D&D 5E Is the imbalance between classes in 5e accidental or by design?

[Warpiglet-7]

None. That's why it shows that it's their fault. That's what their posts demonstrate. They rely on the ability to cast dozens of different spells over a 1 hour period that include several concentration spells that all last their full duration. And that all 6-8 encounter happen in under an hour. And that you can explore an entire dungeon in 10 minutes. It complete relies on the DM being at fault.

I am not trying to prove any point per se but would like to know the jack of all trades preparation list for the day.

Of course it can change from day to day but what are people running with?

And not in their books—-but actually prepared.

 

[Maxperson]

what non caster ability is equal to a 5th level spell

Action Surge(a whole new action). Combat Maneuvers(7 choices of effects plus extra damage). Relentless(regenerating superiority dice). Extra attack 3(and maybe 2). Hold the line. Vigilant Defender. Strength Before Death. Fighting Spirit(at 10th level+).

 

[Art Waring]

Here's some quick and dirty comparison. I didn't do the weighting for % to hit / % fail Dex save cause it was a headache, and I didn't have time, but someone else is welcome to plug the numbers.

While you have some useful calculations, you are missing a few important factors that need to be addressed.

Even without factoring in hit rates & DEX saves, fireball is an AoE spell, which has to be factored in, if its hitting at least two creatures per use of the spell, its dealing double damage by default before saves. Furthermore, I have rarely seen spellcasters use fireball on a single target, they would consider it a waste of a spell slot.

If the fighter gets to account for multiple attacks, then wizards need to account for AoE damage, which exacerbates the problem further. Fireball may not be the best tool of comparison, I myself have made this mistake.

 

[Maxperson]

I am not trying to prove any point per se but would like to know the jack of all trades preparation list for the day.

The list is over in the other thread, but the sheer number of spells being cast in all pillars is staggering. As are the number of concentration spells cast in a short period of time(to fit all the different needs), yet all go max duration.

Of course it can change from day to day but what are people running with?

And not in their books—-but actually prepared.

It was Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Friends, Booming Blade(bladedancer subclass), Protection from Evil and Good, Shield, Haste, Arcane Eye, Knock, Find traps, Gift of Alacrity, Disguise Self, Invisibility, Darkness, Charm Monster, and Suggestion. This was at 8th level and was supposedly able to let the wizard simultaneously be better than a 8th level rogue in all 3 pillars with 6-8 encounters. All in under an hour.

 

[Quickleaf]

While you have some useful calculations, you are missing a few important factors that need to be addressed.

Even without factoring in hit rates & DEX saves, fireball is an AoE spell, which has to be factored in, if its hitting at least two creatures per use of the spell, its dealing double damage by default before saves. Furthermore, I have rarely seen spellcasters use fireball on a single target, they would consider it a waste of a spell slot.

If the fighter gets to account for multiple attacks, then wizards need to account for AoE damage, which exacerbates the problem further. Fireball may not be the best tool of comparison, I myself have made this mistake.

Yeah, absolutely.

Like I said, I have limited time for these sorts of analyses / discussions these days, but I encourage you to revise my work and post your numbers!

It's easy for us to misremember details or speak about anecdotes, which are still valuable, but in trying to triangulate some kind of objective insight into design intent? It's helpful to have a shared reality of what the actual numbers mean.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I think as long as casters continue to have the incredible power high level spells give them, any imbalance will be intentional.

 

[Undrave]

I just can't imagine the designers are so bad at design that this was an accident... but people keep telling me they are

I think it's just a tall ask to balance an RPG like 5e. I'm just questioning how hard they actually TRIED.

Now that we have a working definition of "Balance", I think any balance was intentional. It might not (and probably wasn't) a design goal, but rather an outcome or consequence of the design goals.

i.e. That in general understanding that "balance" is amorphous and highly variable, the system developed was quick, easy and adaptable with a general sense that any class can be helpful and contribute to a party's success and have fun together. And any resulting imbalance left was not particularly important and acceptable to the designers.

They can't get perfect balance due to the nature of the game. It's not a video game where they are the DM and have objective algorithms. They gotta please newbies, veterans, optimizers, rules lawyers, different table cultures, etc.

Balance is a goal but not an attainable one.

It's possible that the game is balanced within a certain level of tolerance and the ones among us who see the imbalance are simply less tolerant than the parameters used by WOTC. RPGs offer nearly infinite potential, and there's only so much play testing can reveal, especially if you play with a limited cross section of play styles.

Naw, just realize that in 5e D&D, the DM has a suite of tools delegated to them.

They are world plots, boons and magic items.

And if you can't fix any spotlight imbalance problems using those tools, you aren't creative enough.

Eeeh... I feel like those facts are used too easily to excuse bad design. The DM shouldn't have to do home work to make sure the game doesn't fall apart, especially as there is barely no guidance on magic items attribution in the DMG. If the game came out 'Hey, all your non-casters should have a magical weapon by level X' I would probably be more forgiving of this attitude. It's one thing to give tools, it's another to properly train them to use it, ya know?

I mean, I guess, if you squint. My preferred vote option would be "Neither; I don't feel they are unbalanced," but as @GMforPowergamers has rightly pointed out, this is not the thread for that conversation. I should have read the thread title more closely.

I'll leave ya'll to it.

You could view the question as 'are the PERCIEVED imbalance intentional design or simply the result of different styles of play' .

I'm leaning into the idea that the Monk and the Wizard are victim of the same issue where they were designed by stuffing as many legacy concept and mechanic as possible. The Monk came out as a mess of unfocused design and the Wizard as an overly flexible caster that can accidentally overshadow the other classes; two sides to the same coin.

I can totally believe it's possible for people to play 5e for years and never realize nor consider either classes have major issues in one way or another, because they play in a way more in line with the expectations of the designers.

Personally I think the Wizard was designed as having the largest and most versatile selection of spell because of tradition (hence why they keep getting spells all the time!), but not to be the 'strongest' class on purpose. It's just the nature of combining many spells together and the various kind of player that can cause the Overpowered Wizard to emerge.

 

[Haplo781]

Remove skills from full casters

 

[GMforPowergamers]

When we talk about balance and intentional design, it seems it about available spells. Let’s do an exercise if anyone cares to do so.

Say you know little of the upcoming adventuring day. You may be on a clock of sorts such that you cannot simply change all of your spells.

What is the level 5, 8 and 12 prepared spell list for a wizard, cantrips included? Use only the PHB if possible.

Assume 18 int by 5th, 20 by 8th.

this entire part will be discredited as cherry picking and white room... but sure I'm game.

5th level with a with an 18 int (I will be taking a 14 and 13 as well)

2 builds:

Spoiler: Diviner

a 5th level diviner gets a spell book of 14 spells only 2 can be 3rd level and 4 2nd level the other 8 have to be first level. I will take a 14 con and a 13 dex (I mean it might make more sense to have higher AC, but if I get hit I want a good con save)
spellbook: 3rd level clairvoyance, fireball 2nd level Hold person, crown of madness, misty step, rope trick, 1st level charm person, comprehend lang, detect magic, find familiar, mage armor, magic missile, shield, tasha laugh, identify

cantrips known: Minor illusion, Mold earth, prestidigitation, chill touch
spells preped: charm person, mage armor, magic missile, shield, tasha, misty step, rope trick, hold person, fireball

pre cast: find familiar (owl) and mage armor
rituals: comprehend lang, detect magic, identify

Spoiler: bladesinger

a 5th level bladesinger is ALMOST a 5th level fighter without action surge (they don't get that extra attack till next level though) but lets go... useing a rapier (refluff as an elven sword) wearing studded leather and will take the 14 dex and 13 con.
spellbook: 3rd level Haste, Counterspell 2nd level Hold person, misty step, rope trick, ray of enfeeblement 1st level charm person, comprehend lang, detect magic, find familiar, magic missile, shield, tasha laugh, thunder wave identify

cantrips: Green Flame Blade, Prestidigitation, Minor illusion, shape water
spells preped: Haste, Counterspell, Hold person, Misty Step, Rope trick, Ray of enfeeblement, shield, Thunderwave

pre cast: find familiar (Raven)
rituals: comprehend lang, detect magic, identify

 

[Guest 7034872]

While you have some useful calculations, you are missing a few important factors that need to be addressed.

Even without factoring in hit rates & DEX saves, fireball is an AoE spell, which has to be factored in, if its hitting at least two creatures per use of the spell, its dealing double damage by default before saves. Furthermore, I have rarely seen spellcasters use fireball on a single target, they would consider it a waste of a spell slot.

If the fighter gets to account for multiple attacks, then wizards need to account for AoE damage, which exacerbates the problem further. Fireball may not be the best tool of comparison, I myself have made this mistake.

I thought Quickleaf's point here was a very simple one: the average amount of damage done by a Big, Fat Spell versus a Big, Bad Fighter has largely flipped over the decades, and this likely is not accidental. And, I mean, just from the numbers on his chart, that does seem true, doesn't it?

I have no experience with 2e-4e and therefore am not competent to speak about them: I only know 1e and 5e. But one thing I vividly remember about 1e is that wizards--even at higher levels--were supposed to spend a lot of their time hanging in back and avoiding getting hit while perhaps achieving a few helpful things in combat, but then also making that One Really Big Move with a clutch spell when it was sorely needed. We had no cantrips in 1e (hardly anyone back then even knew UA existed) and certainly had no damage-dealing cantrips and could not regain spell slots except through a long rest. Spells were used sparingly.

Today?? Pfft! Fuhgeddabouddit.