D&D 5E Is the imbalance between classes in 5e accidental or by design?

[CleverNickName]

so how do you handle people who...

I don't play with them?

I game with the same group of friends that I've played with for years...some of them for probably decades by now. And my friends don't have the issues that you describe. We've never noticed lopsided power between classes, certainly not so severely and consistently that we would blame the rules. YMMV, of course.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I don't play with them?

except that doesn't show in anyway that the issue isn't the system

I game with the same group of friends that I've played with for years...some of them for probably decades by now. And my friends don't have the issues that you describe. We've never noticed lopsided power between classes, certainly not so severely and consistently that we would blame the rules. YMMV, of course.

you not seeing something isn't the same as something not existing.

I noticed you chopped off the part where I actually asked the question though...

so how do you handle people who like conceptually fighter, in 2e and 4e loved and played fighters (and warlords) but in 3e and 5e find the power and customization so lop sided they feel they CAN'T play one without heavy house rules? Same people, same basic game, but in 2 editions lots of weapon warriors and in 2 editions next to none?

the important part is, if as you claim it isn't the system then why can Same people, same basic game, but in 2 editions lots of weapon warriors and in 2 editions next to none?

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Probably because it's not all that imbalanced. As the "Are wizards really all that?" thread shows, the vast majority of the imbalance is the fault of DMs who mismanage wizard spells and the daily encounter balance.

Well it’s more than that. Are encounters varied? We have a very skilled player who found a red dragon and fire giant are not too worried about fireballs, scorching ray etc.

Now that was an unforced error perhaps. But if folks are not pretty experienced, this will happen in various ways of the DM is throwing variety.

My friend was vexed in another session: “I can only prepare so much! This has been frustrating!”

Yeas wizards are powerful but more and varied encounters are the DMs province. I was eldritch smiting left and right and kept my fireball in my pocket.

Wizards are a bigger problem at higher levels in the hands of people who know how to shape the game.

At lower levels and with less experienced players the problem is minimized. I suspect that they did not try to counter this level of player of higher skill levels at higher levels and also think they may not have 100% realized it.

 

[CleverNickName]

except that doesn't show in anyway that the issue isn't the system

You and I are playing the same game (5th Edition). We are using the same rules, but we are playing with different people.
We consistently have different experiences. Thus, the variable is the people at the table, not the rules.

 

[LordEntrails]

For the purpose of this thread, balance would mean that a party’s overall performance is not impacted by what classes compose that party. A party of different character classes should have, on average, just as easy a time at an adventure than a different party of different classes.

<snip>

To me, balance means that the DM doesn’t need to worry about what class his party brings to the table, nor do they need to micro manage their resources (“Do you have enough guano left for that spell?”) and they can just focus on making the game fun and memorable. The DM should be confident that an adventure for four characters of level 5 to 8 will work for their group without any mechanical overhaul on their part as long as the group fits the presented criteria. Maybe the party will have to go at it in an unorthodox way, but they’ll have a shot at victory regardless.

I think that's a good working definition.

And I would say that in general yes 5E is balanced. Of course if the party chose to be a group of 4 assassin rogues etc I would indeed have to adjust a published adventure. The party just might have skills or capabilities to accomplish some goals as written. But that, to me, is more of an adventure design issue than a game balance one.

The fighter, the rogue and the paliden (at least pre crit change) can all out damage the wizard, the cleric and the druid... but not by much.

Not the experience of my party. I've posted actual statistics in threads like this one before. As well, you seem to focus on damage time and again, and imo that's a really poor measure of balance. But ey, if that's what balance is for you, then sure, 5E is not particularly balanced, but that's not what this thread is about. The OP asked a question, is any imbalance between the classes intentional or not. That is the question we should be discussing.

 

[Oofta]

4e would beg to differ

Even 4E was not perfectly balanced in games I played, and I played and DMed up to 30th. It was a different game, but it was never perfectly balanced whatever that means.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Well it’s more than that. Are encounters varied? We have a very skilled player who found a red dragon and fire giant are not too worried about fireballs, scorching ray etc.

at level 5 a wizard with a 16 Int can prep 8 spells and have 4 cantrips if we assume they prep/know half combat spells that means they can have 4 combat spells preped and 2 cantrips... odds of all 6 of those being fire are pretty rare unless they superspecilized in fire damage.

Tasha's laugh can rob either target of at least 1 action...and possibly end the encounter. that is a 1st level spell... toll the dead is a good cantrip, so is almost every other cantrip

 

[GMforPowergamers]

You and I are playing the same game (5th Edition). We are using the same rules, but we are playing with different people.
We consistently have different experiences. Thus, the variable is the people at the table, not the rules.

BUT is it you ignore or modfy the rules, or that we do? since we DON'T run into this with every system it shows the system matters

 

[LordEntrails]

at level 5 a wizard with a 16 Int can prep 8 spells and have 4 cantrips if we assume they prep/know half combat spells that means they can have 4 combat spells preped and 2 cantrips... odds of all 6 of those being fire are pretty rare unless they superspecilized in fire damage.

Tasha's laugh can rob either target of at least 1 action...and possibly end the encounter. that is a 1st level spell... toll the dead is a good cantrip, so is almost every other cantrip

So, back on topic, was this intentional design or accidental?

 

[DarkCrisis]

4th ed tried to make everything balanced and it made everything "samey" and bland. Which IMO was the editions largest error.
Not to say the diff classes didn't excel in one area just they did a little bit of everything else.