D&D 5E Is the imbalance between classes in 5e accidental or by design?

[Flamestrike]

Funny you mention warlock. In every thread I watch as it gets brought up as just as good as a full caster.

I can literally find you a 25 links to threads in this forum alone where the opposite is argued.

 

[Minigiant]

Use a rest variant.

5E is balanced around the 6-8 encounter, 2 short rest AD. If you stray from this baseline, and only ever have single encounter 5 minute work day AD's, and experience balance issues (namely from Long rest classes like the Wizard pwning Short rest classes like the Fighter, Warlock and Monk), that's not a feature of the Wizard class itself, it's down the DM straying from the baseline adventuring day guidelines.

So my point stands. The cause of the phenomena (and I agree it exists at some tables) is down to choices made by the DM and/or the group not sticking to the AD guidelines.

I think the problem is a lot of fans play situations where forcing 6-8 encounters feels clunky. And that what works outside the dungeons might not work within the dungeon. And vice versa.

I mean a heavy trope of DND is tavern brawls and most player expect to the fight to conclude with a night's rest in the tavern or jail.

Because whether or not the DM turns on "Ballroom Blitz" at the Royal Spring Dance, there likely will less than 6 encounters that day. And if you force it it feels weird. And if you ban long rest until they make 6 encounters, that logic alters actual dungeoneeering a lot.

 

[Flamestrike]

Okay then I’m out I was considering saying I would play but that kind of DM heavy handedness isn’t for me.

The game is balanced around a median of 6-8 encounters per long rest, with 2-3 short rests given in that time. IMG you can expect me to adhere to that median as DM. Some days will be longer, some shorter, some with more encounters, some with less, some with more short rests, some with fewer.

I'll do it as subtly as I can with doom clocks and similar, but I also expect my players not to try and game the system with Coffeelocks, Bags-o-Rats, 5MWD abuse or similar.

 

[Umbran]

I've yet to see any statistical evidence from the 'Wizards are God' camp either. In the 8 years of these threads being posted.

Yes. So... you should treat their experience with as much respect as you treat your own then, I think.

Given the insubstantial proof, nobody here should be getting so hot under the collar as to see red text about it.

 

[Flamestrike]

Okay then I’m out I was considering saying I would play but that kind of DM heavy handedness isn’t for me.

And its not 'heavy handedness'. Its logical, builds suspense, makes using abilities matter more, maintains balance, propels the story forward and has a number of other positive effects on play.

A role I see the DM as having a role in maintaining.

Luke Skywalker didnt have all day to get to Alderaan, escape and then blow up the Death Star before it nuked Yavin 4.

Baddies were looking for him, and the Death star was nearly in range.

Every story should have temporal constraints IMO. Nearly all of them I can think of do.

 

[Flamestrike]

Yes. So... you should treat their experience with as much respect as you treat your own then, I think.

And I do.

I've acknowledged the phenomena exists (twice now in this very thread), and I've posited a reason for its existence (inexperienced DMs, and DMs not cleaving to the 6-8 encounter/ 2 short rest AD median). These threads exist for a reason, and they keep popping up every day or two for a reason.

That's the reason. The 5MWD, and inexperienced DMs. It's not an inherent feature of the Wizard class.

 

[Undrave]

Debates like this are why I always liked the variable XP tables of older editions as a balancing factor as well as ability score requirements. You have to meet certain criteria to be an Army Ranger, Navy Seal, get a doctorate etc so the classes like Ranger, Paladin etc had more stringent requirements to become one and to advance or even retain the abilities. You no longer met those criteria you were no longer of that rank until you could be reinstated. I disagree with the gender limits etc in 1e but some of that with regard to choosing class kept those classes rare even amongst players and also made high powered wizards mean something even to players for example. DCC has a breakdown of what the characters mean to the world in one chapter that also help drive it home too without variable XP charts.

That works great if you roll for stats, but rolling for stats is only fun if you can build your character in 5 minutes when they inevitably died when the d20 forsakes you.

Standard array or point build means you can always hit the prerequisite you desire so it doesn't matter.

8 years of this same thread popping up 3 times a week in various iterations, and still nobody has been able to post any actual evidence that wizards (or indeed any casters) are actually unbalanced compared to other classes.

Except that’s not quite what I wanted out of this thread.

We were in that actual thread and ECMO3, rather than deny that OP spellcaster existed said, to paraphrase:

“Of course, the Wizard is the most powerful class! He’s the WIZARD! It makes total sense! Hence why WOTC made it the most powerful class. You can totally tell just from the fluff and the mechanics and the Fighter is the worst class. The game is way more fun when there’s a stronger class.”

And I wanted to know who else shared his opinion, who had the same reading of the PHB.

The DMG Guidelines for adventure are very unpopular BUT the only way to balance a full caster the way D&D fans want casters.

If they're so unpopular, that seems like a major flaw in the system to me...

 

[Vaalingrade]

I'd rather they design the game to better reflect how people actually play rather than every encounter day being like a month of sessions to get through.

 

[Flamestrike]

“Of course, the Wizard is the most powerful class! He’s the WIZARD! It makes total sense! Hence why WOTC made it the most powerful class. You can totally tell just from the fluff and the mechanics and the Fighter is the worst class. The game is way more fun when there’s a stronger class.”

And I wanted to know who else shared his opinion, who had the same reading of the PHB.

I dont share his opinion at all. I argue the exact opposite.

 

[Flamestrike]

I'd rather they design the game to better reflect how people actually play rather than every encounter day being like a month of sessions to get through.

Thats an argument I can get behind.

Im not here supporting the 6-8 encounter/ 2-3 short rest AD. Im just here saying it exists, and these problems (Wizards are God) only seem to happen to people who deviate substantially from that baseline.

Of course Schroedingers wizard with 40 spells (that are supposed to last 6-8 encounters) are going to kick butt in a single encounter AD.

Lets see how he goes when he has to deal with 12 encounters, with 5 short rests allowed, before being allowed to Long rest (some lengthy megadungeon, with a 12 hour doom clock attached).

I dare say the Fighter and Warlock and Monk and Rogue will flex in the second day, while the Wizard flexes in the first day.