Is the Order of the Bow Initiate Overpowered?

[Chiaroscuro23]

I can't see anything the 3.0 OotBI can do that can't be done by a high-level fighter/rogue. An invisible rogue already does more damage than the OotBI with a bow.

Cheers!

IIRC, OotBI is the only way to avoid AoO with a ranged weapon without slowly backing up each round. IME, monsters get to the party fast and the archer can't hide behind a row of pikemen, he has to avoid those AoOs. So OotBI might be damn near requisite. What I'd really like to see is that ability (and Supreme Cleave, for that matter) as feats.

 

[MerricB]

Greater Invisibility also prevents the AoO (and permits sneak attack damage).

The ability is an Epic Feat, IIRC.

Cheers!

 

[Saeviomagy]

The ability is an Epic Feat, IIRC.

There's your answer. Strip the 'epic' tag from it and you're set. Damn epic is lame sometimes.

I almost think that all that you need to do to make high-level non casters and secondary casters compete with wizards and clerics is to simply remove the [epic] tag from every epic feat, and halve the skill prerequisites.

Oh, except for the ones that are "epic blah blah" and are effectively just "the old feat, but much better". Some of those might need to be scrapped (epic toughness is too good), but some of them could be done simply by making the original feat a prerequisite.

 

[dagger]

Indeed.

I *like* BoED. Playing *really* good-aligned characters is hard work, and having a book that caters to them is great.




1d6/round to undead.
2d6/round to evil-aligned outsiders.

4th level spell.

Cheers!

So how is this 4th level spell overpowered again? How does it light up the entire dungeon again? The light does not go through walls.....

IF you look at the spell, they only take damage when with in 60 ft of the object, not the other 60 ft.

 

[dagger]

IIRC, OotBI is the only way to avoid AoO with a ranged weapon without slowly backing up each round. IME, monsters get to the party fast and the archer can't hide behind a row of pikemen, he has to avoid those AoOs. So OotBI might be damn near requisite. What I'd really like to see is that ability (and Supreme Cleave, for that matter) as feats.

Exotic Weapon Master gets the ability to avoid AoO with any exotic ranged weapons.

 

[MerricB]

So how is this 4th level spell overpowered again? How does it light up the entire dungeon again? The light does not go through walls.....

IF you look at the spell, they only take damage when with in 60 ft of the object, not the other 60 ft.

I can't see it myself. But then, I think the BoED is a reasonable book.

(I've got a Vow of Poverty Monk in my current Necropolis campaign, and overwhelming she is not).

Cheers!

 

[Numion]

In 3.0E it was overpowered. I know this from personal experience as a DM. The ability to stack wisdom bonuses to hit and gaining feats that were epic back then made for attack bonuses that were very high. Sneak attack isn't a big factor, but my player used imp. invisibility from a spell storing ioun stone every now and then, and while a percentage of high-CR opponents sense invisible, those that don't are mincemeat pretty quickly.

 

[genshou]

In 3.0E it was overpowered. I know this from personal experience as a DM. The ability to stack wisdom bonuses to hit and gaining feats that were epic back then made for attack bonuses that were very high. Sneak attack isn't a big factor, but my player used imp. invisibility from a spell storing ioun stone every now and then, and while a percentage of high-CR opponents sense invisible, those that don't are mincemeat pretty quickly.

Ok, a higher attack bonus IF they take the Zen Archery feat, I'll give you that.

It still looks like a Dex-based Fighter to me, though: the only way they can compare in damage to the classic melee Fighter is if they are perfectly optimized (which involves having at least a starting 15 in Str, Dex, AND Wis), and take a LOT of ranged combat feats.

Have you done a damage per round comparison? The only way the OotBI can compare is if they actually get to add their SA bonus at that time.

Of course, the fact that an OotBI gets a higher BaB and more attacks per round than a rogue is balanced by the fact that–unless you build the class with a lot of rogue levels (let's say Fighter 4 for the specialization requirement, then 6 levels of rogue and 10 levels of OotBI), you won't be doing nearly as much SA damage.

Also, don't forget that a rogue can use SA with melee weapons, so they can threaten an area and can therefore flank for SA against even those who still retain their Dex bonus. An OoTBI must be using a ranged attack AND be within 30 feet. Less chance for SA with those caveats!

 

[Numion]

Have you done a damage per round comparison? The only way the OotBI can compare is if they actually get to add their SA bonus at that time.

In our game OotBI did the most damage on average even without SA. This is due to superior attack bonuses (stacked WIS, superior weapon focus), and decent damage bonus from weapon spec, improved weapon spec, bow of might. The main factor in comparison to meleers is though that OotBI doesn't need to change positions in melee as often, and thus gets majorly more full attacks in with rapid shot. This often gets missed in "damage per round comparisons", that are too theoretical anyway.

 

[Rackhir]

IIRC, OotBI is the only way to avoid AoO with a ranged weapon without slowly backing up each round. IME, monsters get to the party fast and the archer can't hide behind a row of pikemen, he has to avoid those AoOs. So OotBI might be damn near requisite. What I'd really like to see is that ability (and Supreme Cleave, for that matter) as feats.

Arrow Mind from Complete Adventurer is a 1st level Ranger spell that enables an archer to threaten a standard 5' area around the character and avoid AoOs due to firing a bow.